Ford V10 knock problem

[Trailblazer]

WOW! Sorry to hear about the problems you are having. Hopefully you will be able to fix the problem soon. Please do keep us posted.

Although I don’t know why it was happening I had a similar problem on an old 1978 Chevy Blazer with the 350 cu in engine. Although I can’t remember the exact symptoms I experienced leading up to the blown manifold gaskets, I ended up having to replace them twice due to the manifold bolts backing out. After the second time this happened I checking the tightness of the bolts at the beginning of each month and each time I found at least one of the bolts was starting to loosen up. Taking at most 10 minutes at the beginning of each month to check the bolt tightness resulted in me not having to replace another manifold gasket over the remaining years I owned the truck.

[JohnB]

Just reporting back on the truck. She is all fixed up now. Had some time off from work over the holidays to work on it.

The issue was an exhaust manifold leak. The good news is I had no broken studs. Some when they came out, 5 of them (50%) felt like they had very little to no torque on them. The nuts where rusted to the stud, it was not nut back off, more like the stud stretched or somewhere in it's life the stud loosened a bit before the nuts rusted to the manifold to stop it. These 3 valve heads did not give me the broken stud issue of the pre 2005, 2 valve V10 heads thank goodness.

Here are few pics of the repair process.














New studs in




Back together


All I can says is WOW... This truck sounds quieter then I ever remember. Either my memory is fading what 3 years ago sounded like....or the recent "load" sound of new normal clouded my memory of what quite use to be...

For those wanting to see all the pic's see here: JohnB's F350 manifold pics

And if you want the full saga with words of the adventure see here of the FTE site: F350 V10 Exhaust Manifold Leak

Thanks for stopping by to look.

John

[clueless campers]

John, glad you found and fixed the problem. We also had an exhaust manifold leak fixed a couple years ago.
I just realized I never reported back on Charlie's 5.4 Triton. After $$$$(yes, high 4 digits ) and an entire season of cancelled camping, it was a cam phaser. After having the motor completely torn apart and rebuilt, the same knock returned. The only reason we knew it was the cam phaser was because it was missing from the replacement head. It took about a month to find any head, so the original cam phaser was used. I think it was the one on the right bank.
The Tritons are great when they run but can be a real pain when they don't!

[Gene]

Originally Posted by JohnB

.......
And if you want the full saga with words of the adventure see here of the FTE site: F350 V10 Exhaust Manifold Leak ....

That is one fantastic writeup and one fantastic job well done.

That 8" pipe wrench was a bit of genius in that situation.

[JohnB]

Dona, Glad your truck is back up and going. WOW sounds like are real ordeal.

Gene, thanks for the kind words. That little 8" pipe wrench I had since I was like 16 I think. It really has a good bite on small things. All the stud extractors I could see at the store where big on OD and would of hit the casting boss sticking out right next to it. So I thought, h'mm go old school John, yup it came right out.

Thanks

John

[frank]

Nice work, John. Good deal that the studs didn't really give you any grief. I'm usually not that lucky!

Myself, I need to run out later today and pick up some gaskets as the hot rod has a leaking intake manifold. The fun never ends!

- Frank

[Trailblazer]

John, thanks for reporting back. Happy to hear you were able to get all of the studs out without breaking any.

[JohnB]

Frank and Bill,

Thanks guys. Yes I count my blessings I did not have any studs break off in the head. If I had to drill any out it would be a bear. Even a right angle drill will have a tough time. The way the head is and the coil spring and shock tower it all just fits in there... I have had a lot of experience with aluminum block small engines from years ago. And I never had head bolt ever corrode into the block on them. The 2 valve V10's which had a lot of broken studs I do not know if they are cast iron heads verses the aluminum heads of the 3 valve modular engines like I have. That may have been my saving grace.

We went camping this weekend. First time towing in a while without the tick tick tick and massive gas knock sound... Just the smooth pulling of this V10 coupled to a Torque Shift tranny.

Next project is spark plugs... This 2005 vintage does not have the spark plug spit issue just the spark plug end break off problem. In early to mid year 2008 they changed to correct this issue. I have been researching this now for a while and have the 3rd publication 11 page TSB on how to do this. I have to get the plug extractor tool first before I start into this in case one breaks when taking it out. Right now I'm running injector cleaner to soften up the carbon around the end of the plug and waiting for spring to get me more close to room temperature on the head and plug. While I can do manifold studs in cold temps, spark plugs is a different story.

Thanks

John

[Hematite]

John, Good to hear that you have the problem corrected! As to the plugs, use Chevron Techron fuel system cleaner in at least one tank, preferably 2 consecutive tanks immediately before performing the spark plug removal. This is the most essential part of a successful removal process.
Second, when removing, use the long one piece spark plug tool designed for these heads and a torque wrench. After the initial 1/8 turn and solvent, turn the plug back and forth, with solvent, as needed to remove but never exceeding 28 ft pounds turning out. Over that is the breaking point. The procedure is slow, tedious, and annoying more than anything else.
Third, always change the oil after the plug change.

Believe it or not there have been some people that have put an air wrench on them and removed the plugs dry and never had a problem. To them I say buy a Lottery ticket! LOL.

The current Motorcraft plugs for the engine have an improved strength crimp to avoid that from happening. That with the nickel antisieze on the shield should help with future removals. Some prefer the Champion 1 piece because it is one piece but there have been some driveability issues with any but the original plug.

That's what happens when you farm out your head design to Honeywell/ Autolite because Ford thought they could come up with a better designed head. Should have used their own engineers, instead.

[JohnB]

Rich,

Thanks, I'm running injector cleaner now in the gas. I read that tip already. We only use the truck now for camper hauling, a tractor hauler or when son borrows it to haul something... So it will take me a bit to get through 2 tanks of fuel. I figure come March/early April I'll be into this.

I did buy the special 9/16" plug socket with a magnet but it sounds like you may be referring to something different. I was just going to use an extension on it to get it up to working height. I have a collection of different length sockets.

Or do you mean like this?
S9716KL, Socket, Spark Plug, Deep, 9/16", 6 pt.

Here it is in a set though
Mac Tools Online Store - 9-PC. 3/8" Drive, Multi-Length Spark Plug Socket Set

And I have the nickel anti-size already. Had to go to 2 Ford dealers to get it. The nickel is rated higher in temp. Seems some use the copper but it is not rated as high as the nickel.

I was still going to use the Motorcraft plugs on the install. SP515 was the number I came up with and SP 507 being the older one. Is this what you heard? I have not yet bought the plugs.

The Motorcraft are double platinum. The Champion has a better looking lower shield setup, but I too have read the mixed bag of reports on getting them to run right.

Champion 7989 - YouTube

The impact.... Yes I read and saw that too. Here is the same guy I think by the voice in 2 different videos doing it.

This is his first attempt.

SPARK PLUG REMOVAL FROM AN 05 F150 5.4 3 VALVE USING A 3/8th IMPACT - YouTube

And after he has it down pat. He states he has done over 100 trucks this way and not broke one yet.

Ford 5.4 Liter 3 Valve Spark Plug Removal - YouTube

I have a 3/8" impact. I just have to build up enough guts to try this.... the thought of this really makes me nervous. I'm assuming the impact jarring is loosening the carbon.

Right now I have 75K miles on these plugs. After I get these out, next time I am switching to 50K miles to even more increase the success odds. This engine works so good that the cost for plugs and boots at 50K is not much in the big picture of things. I have heard the reports on the new 6.2 V8 they are now using to replace the 6.8 V10. The 6.2 works good but the fuel mileage towing does not seem any better then mine. If this keeps holding true, well I will just hang onto mine a good long time. I have zero pulling performance issues towing the camper with this truck, just she has a drinking problem...LOL

Thanks

John

[Hematite]

I like the OTC tool design. http://www.amazon.com/OTC-6900-F-150.../dp/B000NBVFN2

Note that it has a large knurled top making it very easy to remove or start the spark plug by hand. There's no substitute for the one piece, correct length design. That reduces the wobble of the socket/ extension joint. Just a tool correctly designed for the job.

Yes, definitely use the Motorcraft 515. The engines run smooth as an electical motor with this plug.

I have to say that I would like to believe that I could use a 3/8 air ratchet successfully but I would have to research that idea a bit more.

I feel that using Kano penetrating oil with silicone has to help in addition to the carb cleaner for removing the plugs.

Actually, I'm not going to decrease the mileage schedule for replacement for my engine. Somebody used the Techron for 2 tanks and removed the original plugs according to the TSB, with no problems, at 115,000 miles. 75K is the optimum mileage for replacement and that's the way I'm going to go. Once the improved 515 plugs are in with the nickel antisieze they should be much easier to change in the future.

Yes, if I were you I would stick with the V10. Great engine. I don't think that the 6.2 is an equal replacement at all.

[JohnB]

Rick,

Thanks for the tip on the plug socket. That is a whole lot better then the $119 Snapon one... And Like Snapon but a bit much for a socket

Odd though the Snapon plug extractor was only $92.50 and they include the tap. NAPA wanted over $100 and no tap??
FSPK, Set, Spark Plug Extractor, Ford Triton


But I found the Lisle plug extractor on Amazon for $53.
Amazon.com: Lisle (LIS65600) Broken Spark Plug Remover for Ford Triton 3 Valve Engines: Automotive

I see they have the nickel Antisieze too.

Thanks, I'll let you know how I make out.

John

[Hematite]

Yes, there is a package on that page on Amazon and I put the 3 items in my cart (socket, Lisle tool and nickel AS). Best prices out there and free shipping.

You'll notice that Silikroil is also available. I have to think that the silicone along with the penetrating oil can help get the plugs out.

Some obesrvations on the videos. Note that Champion has an old style J tip which I don't think is as good as the Motorcraft ground electrode setup.

I noted that in the first impact extraction video he broke them loose first and presumably used carb cleaner before using the impact tool. He did break one but that's not horrible.
Note, in the second video, he did the removal on a hot engine that had had an intake service done to it to remove deposits. The deposit removal is the key to success. I've seen numerous pics of the removed plugs but have never seen plugs come out looking that clean.
I question removing steel plugs from an aluminum head with a hot engine. Those heads must be made of an incredible aluminum alloy to not strip the threads out of the head. Remember, the spark plug is dragging out that long shield while it comes out and the aluminum is hot. I didn't see any torn out threads on the plug threads so this could be the best way to do the job. I thought I was going to have a heart attack, though, every time he took that impact to a plug. LOL.