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Old 08-05-2012, 07:28 PM   #1
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2005 F350 4x4 problems and no reverse

Thought I would reach out to our Sunline members if they ever ran into this.

I have a 2005 F350, SRW's, 4 x 4 with auto locking hubs, V10 and the 5 speed Torqshift tranny. Today and yesterday I was using the 4 x 4 low range. Everything worked right yesterday going in and out of 4 x 4 Low range.

Today 4 x 4 low range engaged fine. Was using the truck this way more to not spin in grass, was not even pulling much of anything. Going forward and backing up fine. When it came time to go back to 2 wheel drive then I started having problems.

At first the front axle would not dissengage and the 4 x 4 and Low range light stayed on. Put in neutral and tried it again a few times. The front axle now did disengage as I could tell when turning the wheels didn't bite in like they normally do when turning. However both the 4 x 4 and Low range lights stayed on. It is like the transfer case was still engaged or the lights where.

Once I climbed out of the field onto the road I could tell by sound it was like the front axle was running just no hubs locked. So I did the old trick of slowly backing up and doing a slight turn. Yep that worked and the 4 x 4 and low range light went out and the feel of the front axle spinning went away.

So I drive home about 30 miles. Stop and go traffic and even got out and unhooked my small utility trailer at my son's house. Everything working just fine. I pull in at the house to put the truck in the garage and went to back up and I have no reverse.

I tried putting in 4 x 4 hi, it engaged so the light comes on, but still no reverse. I can go forward, but no reverse.

I put it back in 2 wheel drive, the 4 x 4 light goes out, D works, 3,2 and 1st gear works but still no reverse.

I put it in reverse and I can hear a shaft turning but no drive shaft movement. Engine can be reved up and the shaft spins faster what ever shaft that might be but no reverse.

Since this all started this afternoon with the 4 x 4 not disengaging my gut says this has something to do with the transfer case. It is acting like it is in neutral when I put it in reverse, yet going forward everything works.

The shaft spinning noise leads me to think it is the transmission output shaft.

Any one with some thoughts on where to start? I have the shop manual down stairs. Need to start reading on what mechanism they use to shift the transfer case in and out with.

Thanks in advance.

John
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:55 PM   #2
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I've had my auto hubs stop working before, which was due to a vacuum loss. Got new hub locks and vacuum parts and it was sucking good again...

I've never had a problem with the t-case, but then again, I don't go into 4x4 high very often, let alone low.

Funny thing recently though. I'm trying to sell my black Excursion. One of the first calls I got on it was from someone who turned out, after I Googled later on, was a salesman at a local dealer. He asked if I ever had any transfer case work done on it because he's heard how they have problems. Well, I've hung out around the Excursion forum for a while now and I've never once heard of anyone say they have had that problem. Maybe it's shown up over in a Super Duty forum where I haven't been, but you'd think someone would have had it or mentioned it if it were such a problem. This guy told me on the phone that something with a drive chain goes out and has to be replaced. After trying to check the validity of that info with the forum though, they some said they'd never heard of such a thing while some did, but said it wasn't at all common that they could tell and they hadn't heard of a chain thing in it because they didn't know how they worked. I left it at that and didn't investigate further since both of mine have always worked fine. But, the chain seems to be what would operate the front axle/driveshaft, so you'd lose the front if that were bad. But you just can't go backward with any axle. My guess is it's in the gearing inside the transfer case?

So did you attempt to put it back in 4x4 low since you got home? I'd be curious if it would work in reverse in just low and not high.
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:36 PM   #3
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Jon,

Thanks for the note. I'm sort of ruling out the transfer case at this point.

Here is where we are at. I used d emy Scan Gage II and did not find any codes present. My good scanner my son has and I do not know if it will go deep enough into the transmission anyway.

I pulled the dip stick, the oil is pink and smells good like normal Mercon SP. The 5R110W uses a special Mercon SP . It was big bucks and only from the dealer when I changed it last now about 25K miles ago. It does not change any kind of color when droplets are on a white metal surface.

I also put it in the 4 x 4 hi, tried reverse, no go.

Tried it in 4 x 4 lo, tried reverse, no go.

While in 2 wheel drive, I also tried when the engine was still at high idle to shift to reverse, wait and listen for the spinning shaft sounds that was still there. The quickly shifted to park. There was no noise, no ratcheting or clunk when I went to park. If the transfer case was acting up I would of thought I might hear a noise of anything popping into park but there is no change in noise other the the shaft spinning stops.

I rolled the truck back from the garage and drove around forward in the yard. When I stopped I tried rev'ing the engine in reverse. It actually attempted to start a slight roll backwards. As I reved it, 750 to 1,500 rpm she kept trying to roll back very little. I shifted to neutral and then to park and then back to reverse. Now nothing, no movement at all even up to 1,800 rpm.

I went to the local Ford dealer after work and asked them to run the VIN. The truck build date is 12/4/2004. I was trying to find out if this truck fell into the recall of the early 2005 F series trucks where the snap ring worked it's way out of low reverse one way clutch. Ford recall 05B27.

There was not anything that showed up on the Oasis report that the dealer could find if the recall was done or not.

I also found this:

DTS Articles - 5R110 Low/Reverse Clutch Snap Ring Failure - Recall 05B27

If this has merit to it then my truck can be affected. If my truck has the Smalley brand wave ring in place of the flat snap ring then can the backing up in 4 lo with the added torque of lo gear have been working on that snap ring and popped it loose?

I also found this. Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum - View Single Post - Recall 05b27 2005 F250 Transmission Cracked

And this. scroll down to the 05 area of the 1st post
TorqShift Transmission - Information and Troubleshooting - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

I do not know why this does not show up on the OASIS report. Am I reading this wrong? If this is it, the program ended Sept 30, 2006.

If this is the problem, them by the looks of the shop manual the transmission needs to come out to correct that snap ring and any other damage that occurred.

And if the original wavy snap ring is in there, I'm assuming I have no recourse from Ford to help costs on this.

With all that said, does anyone have any other thoughts to try? The dealer cannot even get to looking at it for a week plus I'm not a fan of this local dealer for pure trouble shooting skill. I have to go out of town for work on Sunday so I do not have time to pull this out and get it back in before we go camping again at the end of the month. I have an appointment at a local transmission shop on Tuesday. I'm going to have to pay for this one.

Thanks

John
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:31 PM   #4
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Hmm, that's weird. Sorry to hear it will probably be a big repair. Hopefully the local shop will help you out- they seem to be better. I had the Excursion at the dealer once when it was about a month old (they forgot to remove the battery travel wrap, so it wasn't charging), but it hasn't been back since. I have used a local shop I like who did a ball joint on it, an alignment, and also an alignment on the F-450. They are much more thorough and even let me go out with the techs to talk with them as they work.

I'm thinking the advanced scan tool wouldn't help you much, it doesn't sound like an electrical problem. Is it an AutoEngenuity that he has?
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:53 PM   #5
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Well the inspection is done. Now to the recovery process. The shop exhausted every test they could from the outside. They pulled the pan off and found some chips...

So they contacted me and gave me the range of min to max $,$$$ before they started opening it up. It has to come apart to truly tell what happened. And it is what I had thought it was. Which I really hoped I was wrong....

The low/reverse gear snap ring let loose and the entire reverse clutch came out. It damaged a valve in that section but the good news it is did not crack the casting. Since there are some chips in the system it has to be totally flushed and the aux air to oil cooler cannot be flushed as the ports are too small to know you can get everything out of them. That cooler costs $500 installed by itself.

While I have it in the shop they will do fluids change on the transfer case and the front axle.

With the repair and the fluids change this is estimated at $3,500, Ouch! That is unless they find something more during repair. I'm out of time to do this myself, so the shop will.

All this for using the wrong $1.50 snap ring when this truck was built. The truck was built on 12/4/2004. All trucks using this transmission in the model year 2005 have this problem up until late January. Here is the date ranges from the Customer Satisfaction Program 05B27 bulletin I linked above.

Diesel Engine Vehicles built from Job #1 2005 through 1/12/2005.
Gas Engine Vehicles built from Job #1 2005 through 1/14/2005.


If I just happened to find one that was 2 months later in build date I would have missed this.

If you had the snow plow prep package and you brought the truck in before 9/30/2006 Ford would of rebuilt the transmission for you if the snap ring let go. Lucky me this waited until a weekend ago where where where going back and forth pulling out an old cattle wire fence to have this snap ring let go.

The good news in all this, this did not let go during our road trip 800 miles from home with the camper and so far it did not break the transmission housing in the process. This could be worse...

If all goes well the truck will be finished next week and I'll have it back as we were sweating out if we had to cancel a camping trip with our son and his wife in late August. These family campout's are priceless.

John
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Old 08-11-2012, 10:01 PM   #6
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Wow John, it does sound like you were lucky. These things do add up quick, especially when you have to have someone else do the work.

You got the 5R110 in it, right? Mine was built 3/17/05, but since it's the 2V V10, it has the 4R100. I thought the trucks with the 3V got the 5R110 though.

Will they have to drop the trans for this, or can it all be done from underneath?
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2007 T-286SR Cherry/Granola, #6236, original owner, current mileage: 9461.2 (as of 10/01/16)
1997 T-2653 Blue Denim, #5471
1979 12 1/2' MC, Beige & Avocado, #4639
Past Sunlines: '97 T-2653 #5089, '94 T-2251, '86 T-1550, '94 T-2363, '98 T-270SR
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Old 08-12-2012, 06:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunline Fan View Post

You got the 5R110 in it, right? Mine was built 3/17/05, but since it's the 2V V10, it has the 4R100. I thought the trucks with the 3V got the 5R110 though.

Will they have to drop the trans for this, or can it all be done from underneath?
Jon, yes it if the 5R100W and it is out laying on the shop floor in pieces. They are supposed to take pic and save me the blown up parts which I requested.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:11 AM   #8
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Yep that would do it when in reverse high (direct) clutch is applied and reverse band (or clutch pack) is applied and to keep every thing from just going around and around there is a sprag or roller clutch that only will allow every thing to turn in one direction (the spinning sound of every thing going the wrong direction). And yes the only fix is to take it apart for more reason then to just fix the part as it will be full of metal. Using low 4X4 where the wheels can't slip does put a lot of extra stress on the clutch and that is probably was the crowning blow. My Tacoma has the same electric 4X4 shift and I am about to by pass the front axle lock with a switch so I can use the 4 low with out turning the front axles this maybe tricky because I'll have to convince the control unit it is locked in or it won't go into low range.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:55 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB View Post
Jon, yes it if the 5R100W and it is out laying on the shop floor in pieces. They are supposed to take pic and save me the blown up parts which I requested.
Sorry to hear about your troubles John. Even when you have touble you are able to make it an interesting and informative read - Thanks!

T
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainah View Post
Yep that would do it when in reverse high (direct) clutch is applied and reverse band (or clutch pack) is applied and to keep every thing from just going around and around there is a sprag or roller clutch that only will allow every thing to turn in one direction (the spinning sound of every thing going the wrong direction). And yes the only fix is to take it apart for more reason then to just fix the part as it will be full of metal. Using low 4X4 where the wheels can't slip does put a lot of extra stress on the clutch and that is probably was the crowning blow. My Tacoma has the same electric 4X4 shift and I am about to by pass the front axle lock with a switch so I can use the 4 low with out turning the front axles this maybe tricky because I'll have to convince the control unit it is locked in or it won't go into low range.
Mainah, for your truck, are you going to modify it to get it to go into low without four wheel drive? If yes, I'm curious why (other than it would be neat to have)?

My taco '06 was always slow to go into and out of the various modes (4x4 high, 4x4 low, and to lock the rear diff). I never had a problem with it, but it just seemed a bit picky to go in and out for a truck in this day and age.

T
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:59 AM   #11
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Mainah, for your truck, are you going to modify it to get it to go into low without four wheel drive? If yes, I'm curious why (other than it would be neat to have)?

My taco '06 was always slow to go into and out of the various modes (4x4 high, 4x4 low, and to lock the rear diff). I never had a problem with it, but it just seemed a bit picky to go in and out for a truck in this day and age.

T
The front diff. has a device that shifts it into front axle lock at the same time it engages the transfer case either in high or low range but being electronically controlled the sensor in the front diff has to signal the controller that the axle is locked in so the bypass switch has to fool the controller into thinking it's locked and cut off the power to the actuator at the same time. You know I never had a problem locking my front hubs when I needed to some times progress confuses me. All of the electronic 4X4 setups are pretty much the same and are just about as slow as the Tacomaís mineís a 2011 and the speed has not improved. I think moving the trailer around in low range is so much easier on every thing involved but not so good for the drive line if itís driving the front wheels. More often then not I drop the trailer and use the tractor to move it around.
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:11 PM   #12
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The front diff. has a device that shifts it into front axle lock at the same time it engages the transfer case either in high or low range but being electronically controlled the sensor in the front diff has to signal the controller that the axle is locked in so the bypass switch has to fool the controller into thinking it's locked and cut off the power to the actuator at the same time. You know I never had a problem locking my front hubs when I needed to some times progress confuses me. All of the electronic 4X4 setups are pretty much the same and are just about as slow as the Tacomaís mineís a 2011 and the speed has not improved. I think moving the trailer around in low range is so much easier on every thing involved but not so good for the drive line if itís driving the front wheels. More often then not I drop the trailer and use the tractor to move it around.
Got it on the low gear and getting out of the truck to lock the hubs .

I'm a little surprised that you can engage 4x4 and lock rear hubs with just the push of a button - given some people's lack of understanding. I don't know how often people actually tear things up running around on hard dry pavement with 4x4 engaged, but I am surprised that you can just push a simple button and turn it on.
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:19 PM   #13
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Some years ago Chevy started using a semi automatic system that disconnected the front diff. and quit using locking hubs then Ford went to a electric shift arrangement now every one uses them people are too d*** lazy to get out and lock the hubs so it all became push button. Low range compounds the issue of dry pavement X2 but on a dry road in high more then any thing else it wastes fuel the radius of a turn other then parking is not much of a issue as a matter of fact Toyota says drive at least 10 miles a month in 4X4. The drive line is strong enough to slip the tires before it will damage the drive line in 4 high. Most people with 4 wheel drive probable at some point have felt the drive line complaining this is the reason I want to have control of the front diff lock so I can use low range with out the binding to park my camper or trailer in low range/low speed.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:29 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainah View Post
Some years ago Chevy started using a semi automatic system that disconnected the front diff. and quit using locking hubs then Ford went to a electric shift arrangement now every one uses them people are too d*** lazy to get out and lock the hubs so it all became push button. Low range compounds the issue of dry pavement X2 but on a dry road in high more then any thing else it wastes fuel the radius of a turn other then parking is not much of a issue as a matter of fact Toyota says drive at least 10 miles a month in 4X4. The drive line is strong enough to slip the tires before it will damage the drive line in 4 high. Most people with 4 wheel drive probable at some point have felt the drive line complaining this is the reason I want to have control of the front diff lock so I can use low range with out the binding to park my camper or trailer in low range/low speed.
Just to be safe, I've always done my 10 miles per month in the rain or snow or on gravel.
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