Winterizing without antifreeze?

[vcrt]

Thanks for the "under the sofa" photo, I've only been able to see in from the grille access in front of the water heater in our camper. I'll look again when I go to bypass to see if the same arrangement.

I've been gradually adding pipe insulation where I can reach it in an attempt to minimize the growl from the pump. I think it's getting better.

The pump: Yes John, that is helpful, although I'm not fully getting the pipe arrangement you set up at the pump. Did you just add a place for an air hose to be connected? Or was that white hose (looks like a water hose on the suction side) used for adding antifreeze?

Thanks,
Rich

[JohnB]

On the HW heater bypass, after you "deal" with getting under the couch, you may think of something like this
http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f6...-way-8094.html

To this question

The pump: Yes John, that is helpful, although I'm not fully getting the pipe arrangement you set up at the pump. Did you just add a place for an air hose to be connected? Or was that white hose (looks like a water hose on the suction side) used for adding antifreeze?

The white hose is my air line tie in. I screw it on the gray 90 deg elbow fitting and the other end has an air chuck fitting on it.

And yes, there is a white pump suction hose under the pump.

Here is what I did on the T310SR for blow out.

This is what it looks like today




Here is the evolution before the shelf and a few adjustments




I can hook onto the down stream side of the pump and blow forward throughout the camper

I can then valve off and blow down out the line to the fresh tank, the pump suction line. Have to move the air blow hose.

I can then blow through the pump and burp run the pump

And I can unscrew the pump filter strainer to let the last water out and let it dry out.

This is what Sunline gave me to start with. It worked OK but servicing it was a "bear". This is buried under the kitchen sink area. You have to crawl in through a drawer hole under the sink. I'm not that small any more...



This was the first attempt to de-noise the water hammer banging. Added flex line and rotated the pump in place. This was short lived when it came time to blow out or even RV anti freeze add. Thus the entire pump move to the new location. You can see the drawer crawl in hole

[mainah]

The local camp ground I do part time work for rents a diesel jack hammer compressor to blow out all of the camp ground plumbing never had a problem yet.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by mainah

The local camp ground I do part time work for rents a diesel jack hammer compressor to blow out all of the camp ground plumbing never had a problem yet.

Ah yup!! that would have enough volume and then some.... for a camper.

On a 2" or larger main pipe, that takes a lot of air.

[vcrt]

Well John, That's quite a setup you've got now, but I'm sure all that work translates into a simple winterizing experience.

I went back and blew air into the pump discharge hose today and got a little water from the showers (inside and out) and none at all from the bathroom or kitchen sink. I would have considered all the pipes to be clear of water at this point, but I heard the sound of gurgling water when blowing from the pump line and that bothers me. It sounds like there's water in the system someplace and I don't want to chance leaving any that might freeze, so I may just add the antifreeze.Any ideas where this sound could be coming from?

I checked under the sofa, the lines look pretty much the same as your 2499 John. Our 2007 has the furnace inlet vent directly in front of the HW tank, so no contortion acts anymore. I do wonder how the bypass arrangement works with only one valve on the bottom tank connection. Our 2470 had a bypass valve at the bottom and the top connections. When winterizing, I would close both so the antifreeze would have no way to enter the HW tank.
It seems with one valve, water could still get into the tank at the top.

So your current camper had the water pump under the kitchen sink? I wonder if your drawers were deeper than ours. They are so short, I had to extend the left side of the top drawer (couldn't extend the entire width b/c they put the drain from the sink right there)so we could add a utensil tray with the forks and spoons aiming into the drawer instead of sideways.
A future project is planned where I will extend all of the drawers (maybe relocate the drain trap) into the space that is there, just not used.

Interesting read on the link you posted. I liked the part about your years spent on the farm.

Thanks,
Rich

[mainah]

Originally Posted by JohnB

Ah yup!! that would have enough volume and then some.... for a camper.

On a 2" or larger main pipe, that takes a lot of air.

I suspect connected to a camper it might just make the camper larger! We just made up a hose bib to compressor fitting. The wells are driven points down 6' below grade they pretty much drain them self's when we remove the pumps it's the 3/4 " that's mostly on the ground that's the problem.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by vcrt

I do wonder how the bypass arrangement works with only one valve on the bottom tank connection. Our 2470 had a bypass valve at the bottom and the top connections. When winterizing, I would close both so the antifreeze would have no way to enter the HW tank.
It seems with one valve, water could still get into the tank at the top.

So your current camper had the water pump under the kitchen sink? I wonder if your drawers were deeper than ours. They are so short, I had to extend the left side of the top drawer (couldn't extend the entire width b/c they put the drain from the sink right there)so we could add a utensil tray with the forks and spoons aiming into the drawer instead of sideways.
A future project is planned where I will extend all of the drawers (maybe relocate the drain trap) into the space that is there, just not used.

Hi Rich,

Your older bypass setup with 2 valves is the ideal setup from a reliability standpoint. However Sunline stopped using it as the standard approach somewhere along the way. Maybe folks got too confused what to do with the 2 valves?? Don't know for sure.

This is what they did. An elevation view


And a top view


If you look on the top, there is a brass fitting on the top outlet port. That fitting is a check valve. Water "normally" only flows out of the top. So using a bottom 3 way valve they can in theory bypass the HW heater.

There are 2 general flaws of this setup.

1. The check valve will not seat itself totally or very quick. I had this problem. When I use to use the antifreeze the check would not seat itself until about 3 qts went into the top of the HW heater. It may have been a pressure thing that the hot water line had to fill to create enough back pressure to set the check. Granted only using 3 qts in a 6 gallon heater is still a savings, but the 2 valve system allows "0" usage and 100% savings.

2. The check valve will get stuck closed and or open. The check valve being in the direct path of the hot water and right at the heater is subjected to a good dose of calcium or other impurities that come along in hard water. It is often a classic text book cause of, "I can't get any HW to come out? The valve gets stuck closed after sitting over the winter seems to be a common reported event. To cure this, take the plastic discharge fitting off, press the check backwards and all starts flowing again. Since water quality varies so much, some may never have an issue and others who get real hard water from the CG or home, have higher odds of the problem. Again the 2 valve system is more immune to this issue.

I would not of thought this was a cost cutting improvement using the check over the cost of a Flair it 3 way valve, but maybe so.


The gurgle in the water blow out, yes, each floor plan can be have a different setup. On mine, it seems the HW at the kitchen sink is the worst offender. This is where my comment comes from as to have enough volume to blow out a low pocket. My HW at the sink will blow and spit. I need to let it blow long enough to stop the spitting. I also blow, then wait, then blow, then wait and do it again. And come back and do it again before I call it good. After a few attempts of nothing spitting, I'm done. I let the HW tank open to the system when I blowout. It allows the HW tank to work as an accumulator to help create a large surge to help blow out. Granted the compressor has to recharge the tank, but you can get a large local volume blast to help blow out the low spots.

I also flip the bypass and blow out through the bypass in the blow out process so the riser pipe is empty.

Another reason to leave the all faucets open after blow out. Some level of evaporation can take places and small droplets have a chance to evaporate out. It is when the water left is large enough to totally fill the pipe diameter and be in a semi long run that the issues come. As long as the water left is not enough to fill the cross section size of the pipe the droplets are not a concern.

John

[vcrt]

John, thanks for the info on the lack of another bypass valve on the HW tank. I didn't know anything about that check valve. I think I'll wait until such time that it gives a problem and then eliminate it and add another bypass valve.

I did another system blow out today from the pump discharge line and got no water from any of the faucets, although the ground under the low point drains was wet. I then went back to the city inlet and with a hose connected to the free discharge hose, got some water spray out of it (hung an extension over the edge of the shed door opening). I think that was causing the gurgling sound I heard.
So it looks like I got the remaining water out of the system. Tomorrow one more check on the pump to make sure it's empty and I'll call it done.
So far, I've spent a lot more time on this thing than I used to do when I ran the antifreeze through on the old camper, but one thing that took too much time was trying to figure out how this plastic winterizing valve worked. It had one arrow on it that pointed inward from the center port and I thought that indicated the port that the fresh water would come in from. Wrong, I have no idea what the arrow was trying to tell me and I ended up disconnecting it altogether and putting it back in the bag. Maybe I'll save it to use for the other HW bypass valve. Wait, no, the label said for cold water only. Maybe I won't use it for anything.
On my 92 2470, I had installed a simple brass valve with a screw on hose attachment. That was easy.

But, I'll leave all this till next fall when winterizing season comes around and decide what I want to do then. For now, it's no antifreeze with all the faucets, HW heater bypass valve and low point drains left open.
Oh, one more thing, you mentioned the toilet (valve?). What attention does this need? I've flushed a few times and no water is in the bowl.
Thanks,
Rich

[mainah]

Oh, one more thing, you mentioned the toilet (valve?). What attention does this need? I've flushed a few times and no water is in the bowl.
Thanks,
Rich[/QUOTE]

Open the toilet valve and let the air blow it out too.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by vcrt

Oh, one more thing, you mentioned the toilet (valve?). What attention does this need? I've flushed a few times and no water is in the bowl.

You blow this out just like a faucet. Hang on the foot pedal all the way down OR like I do it UP, so I can see if water is collecting. Then once the water stops coming I dump the water down the gray tank. I burp it several times letting the pressure rise in the HW heater and then blast again. I do put a little anti freeze in the bowl to keep the seal from drying out.

Your valve should look similar to this. Mine has the sprayer, yours I do not know. They stopped adding that option some time I think in 2006. But the foot valve should be similar.




The natural trap is in the spring housing behind that brass cap. Sealand states in their directions you can unhook the water feed line and let it evaporate out. I did that the first year I went air blow method but then went air only after the 1st year. The odds of messing up the rubber washer in the pex screw on fitting would increase if I kept doing and undoing it all the time.

John

[vcrt]

Thanks, hopefully I'll finish it tomorrow.
And then it can get cold, really really cold!!!
Nah, it'll probably be the warmest winter on record.
Rich

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by vcrt

Nah, it'll probably be the warmest winter on record.
Rich

I'll take that! Means more camping!

[vcrt]

I looked at a diagram of a Sealand toilet online (I have the manual back at the camper) and read the winterizing instructions that said like you mentioned John, to remove the inlet water line and operate the valve to allow the water to drain out. You said you didn't like this idea because it would probably cause damage to the rubber washer over time. I guess you could remove it once and install an inline drain valve for future winterizing, do you think that would take care of it?
Rich

[JohnB]

Rich,

I have done the blow out method on the Sealand for the last 8 years. I even bought an extra valve in case I ran into an issue. Have not had an issue with it to date... I do however lift the lever to blow into to the bowl so I can see what I am blowing out verses going down the drain. Once it stops collecting at the ball seal, I call it good. And then come back and do it again.

I do not know if Sealand was thinking "only" a gravity drain and then let the hose off to allow evaporation.

The blowing action can help evacuate some of the water in the spring housing. It somehow is enough to not cause an issue under my conditions. The last few years we have had -15F cold snaps for a week long and it still came through OK. I thought for sure if there was an issue it would of showed up then. I also have about 30 days of non freezing weather since the blow out. In that time period it may evaporate some into the empty piping. I have never blown it out on a day it freezes hard the next day to know if that is a problem.

Ideally there is a small drain petcock in the brass spring housing cap you can just let the water out then it solves all the issues. For the factory to do this, it would cost more then they want to spend I'm sure.

Your idea of a drain valve upstream is not a bad one, ideally it is a 3 way like the HW bypass valve to allow air to get back in. And do not have it flipped wrong and turn on the pump...

I will be away from the camper for a week. When I get back I will look at the spare valve I have and see if that turns up anything to help make this more understood. This now has me even thinking on it.

John

[vcrt]

Well, after much consideration, I decided to go the antifreeze route. I was concerned that some pocket of water might have still existed and I discovered that Sunline's "low point drains" aren't exactly that on a 2499. The drain valves are located on the floor under the bathroom sink in lines that come up from under the floor, meaning that the actual lowest points for the whole system is just below the floor between the shower and toilet. To be truly considered low point drains, I would think they would have to be located at the lowest point and that would put them somewhere around the middle of the underside of the camper where they'd provide no place for the valves to be placed inside a 2499, so maybe that's why they are located where they are (unless they provided a hatch in the floor)
Anyway, next year, I can see the whole process of blowing out the lines and adding antifreeze (I installed Camco's winterizing brass bypass valve) taking about 20 minutes which is not bad for peace of mind when the temps dip down low and stay there for an extended time. If we do get some time to take a camping trip this winter when the temps are up and the weather nice, we'll find a year-round CG like JohnB and use their bath houses.
Thanks for all the help,
Rich

[mainah]

They probably are pull valves there should be a "T" handle on top of the fitting just pull it up that should open the valve and the water will drain out on the ground.

[vcrt]

mainah,
Our 92 2470 had those pull up valves, but this 2007 2499 has what look like flip-lever bypass valves and they are located on the floor just before the bathroom sink. You can see the drain pipes just below them from the outside, coming through the black darco.
Rich

[mainah]

Yeah they are the low point drains mine are under the rear sink too. If you feel they may have water in them just use the same air pressure method and blow them out too.

[jim44646]

I've dealt with burst lines and the mess it can create. You don't know until you energize the system that you have a problem then it's to late. I do both blow the lines then antifreeze.

[vcrt]

Yes and particularly when the lines run between the floor and the Darco. If a split occurred there, I wouldn't know it until it had saturated half the insulation under the floor
Rich