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Old 12-23-2009, 04:42 PM   #1
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WH wiring.. Staring me in the face?

I intend to use the WH out of the 299SR in the 311SR, but the wiring is a bit different. I'll use pics to help me out here...

WH wires, that are in the 311SR:



WH wires, on the WH itself:


Wiring diagram, that I assume is for the original WH in the 311:


Wiring diagram for the WH that needs to go into the 311:


I'm sure the solution is staring me in the face, but my brain is mush from work..

Gary
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:20 PM   #2
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Out of curiosity, I grabbed the WH switch out of the 299.. The one that controlled this WH.

Front view:


Rear view:


Notice the lack of a brown and orange wire? What gives??

This is one of those times, when I wish I had paid closer attention to what I was doing!
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Old 12-23-2009, 09:15 PM   #3
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This doesn't look right. I just looked at the picture I have of my wiring diagram for the switch (T-2363) and it looks like yours. There should not be a connection from pin 2 to pin 4 (The short white jumper wire in the picture). One of those should go to the battery (+) and one should go to ground (-)

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Old 12-23-2009, 09:23 PM   #4
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[quote="Gene"]This doesn't look right. I just looked at the picture I have of my wiring diagram for the switch (T-2363) and it looks like yours. There should not be a connection from pin 2 to pin 4 (The short white jumper wire in the picture). One of those should go to the battery (+) and one should go to ground (-)

That's what I thought, until I went and got the switch. The wires are exactly where they were, when I cut them. I always try to leave wires connected, because they remember where they were better than I do.
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:26 PM   #5
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Gary

That wiring diagram does not look right for the 299. There is no electric element. Only gas.

The wiring diagram you have as listed on the F311 is the same set up as mine. And that should of fit the T299 as it has the remote Atwood switch

Now for colors on the switch, Sunline may have wire nutted different colors back at the heater. But….maybe not

The Attwood switch, there should not be an orange wire on there. That switch is for the electric element.

On the HW heater board,

The orange is gas and goes to the tank panel gas rocker switch. This does not go to the Atwood switch
The White is for electric heat. This wire should go to the Atwood switch.

Now the Attwood switch. That switch and light does not really show up in the wiring diagram. Well the light does not but the switch does.

I can’t tell from the pic BUT I believe the blue is +12 DC from a battery source. So it is the hot wire. Power comes in the blue, goes thru the switch and come out as white. When switch is on, white is hot, goes to HW heater white and then jumps to the red pilot light giving it +12VDC. The green on the light I believe is ground for – 12 VDC

Does that fit what you are seeing?

John
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:52 PM   #6
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But where does that orange wire connect?
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:59 AM   #7
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Gary, can you get at the switch in the 311 and take a look at how it's wired? That may be a big clue on how to resolve this.

On both diagrams, BLU out of the WH is the +12VDC line for the "I ain't working" light up in the galley. If the WH fails to light, the BLU goes hot, turning the light on. The other side of the light should be GND.

Like John said, who knows what color was used in the run up to the switch.
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Old 12-24-2009, 09:08 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMD_Driver
But where does that orange wire connect?
The orange at the water heater circuit board needs to end up on the tank panel rocker switch that says "gas" “Normally” However…. After checking you do not have Normal…… at least normal for the HW heater you are trying to hook up

See this pic from your F311. There is NO rocker switch on the tank panel that says gas.



See my tank panel out of the T310. IF you go look in the T299 I suspect it looks just like this. And this is the HW heater you are trying to hook up. There is an Atwood toggle switch with a red light to indicate Electric heat.

There is a rocker switch on the tank panel and a DSI fault light on the tank panel for gas operation. See rocker that says HTR. The round mini dot between the 2 siwtvches is the DSI fault






OK I “think” I figured out the problem. I see no hook up in your F311 switches that indicates that you ever has an electric option for the HW heater. It may have only been a gas heat. If it was then that white toggle switch turn on the gas and the red light was for fault. No electric.

Go look at the T299 tank panel. If it has the gas rocker switch and the mini DSI fault light in it then you have an upgrade to do. You showed us the Atwood rocker switch with the red light out of the T229, not the one out of the T311. So heck I thought you had the combo ele/gas heater originally in the T311. Maybe not.

Here I’ll save you a trip. Fount this pic of the T299 That HW heater has the gas rocker switch that feeds the orange wire.



If you lift the Atwood red light switch now on the T311 it will shed some light on this. I “suspect” it will follow this diagram. For a gas only heater.


OK so now what….. This is one option.

Leave the existing switch in the F311 for gas. The red light will be DSI fault like it always was. ADD the Atwood switch out of the T299 to the F311 and use it for the electric portion. Like I talked about early on. Now you have no 120 VAC run to the HW heater are do you? A dedicated breaker? That you will have to overcome. But after that the HW heater should work fine on electric.

The assumption here was the F311 origanly came with gas and electric. I do not think so.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 12-24-2009, 09:14 AM   #9
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Gary there is one other more clean option.

Since you have the T299 tank monitor panel, use the white outer frame with the 2 switches in it and replace just the outer frame.

So you have a tank level pad from the F311, the outer frame from the T299 with 2 switches and life is good. Then convert the F311 Atwood switch over to being the electric switch and light

Well except for the missing 120VAC direct line. You can hook all the control up now and just run it on gas. Then when time permits, run the 120 line over. The breakers out of the T299 may even work. It is a 15 amp dedicated breaker in mine to the element. And we "Always" turn it off when we stop camping so we do not fry the element by mistake

Good luck

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Old 12-24-2009, 10:29 AM   #10
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John,

I'm going out and find the tank panel from the 299 now. The WH in the 311 was exactly like the one in the 320. The electric switch was on the WH itself and there was no other remote for electric.

The 299 had two switches for the WH... One on the panel and the separate Atwood switch.

I am going to try your suggestion and see if the panel will fit in the 299's frame..

Thanks for the suggestions and the help Gene, John and Steve!
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Old 12-24-2009, 11:02 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMD_Driver
John,

I'm going out and find the tank panel from the 299 now. The WH in the 311 was exactly like the one in the 320. The electric switch was on the WH itself and there was no other remote for electric.

The 299 had two switches for the WH... One on the panel and the separate Atwood switch.

I am going to try your suggestion and see if the panel will fit in the 299's frame..

Thanks for the suggestions and the help Gene, John and Steve!
Well this is good news!!! It means the 120 VAC direct line exists. Cool!

If the tank panel swap-a-roo works then you have all the goodies to do a rewire job and come out with a 2004 and newer setup. Which is even better then what the 2003 setup was. Your on site RV parts supply store is paying off.... Just don't use more then 1 of everything that is a big component ....

Your on the right track now. You will get it.

Good luck

John
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Old 12-24-2009, 12:19 PM   #12
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Ok Guys... A bit more progress...

Here's a pic of the original WH switch. This one controlled the gas portion of the original WH and will control the gas portion of the "New" WH.


These are the circuit board connectors from both the 299 and the 311. The one on the left is the one in the 311. The one on the right is the from the 299. There are less wires, since there weren't as many sensors on the 299.


Here's the outer ring from the 299, that is going into the 311. I had to cut and splice the small white ground wire between the two. You can also see a small red wire that is piggy-backed onto the red wire for the WH. I spliced that into the small red wire, that goes to the circuit board connector. It was connected to that same wire, on the other connector.


After mounting the assembly back in it's place and connected the pump wires back together, I am left with three wires. The gray and red wires are the WH switch wires and the pink one goes to the DSI fault.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but....

The pink wire should be connected to the blue from the WH...

The gray wire should hook to the white(Electric control) wire from the WH.

The red wire should go to 12+




As far as the existing 311 wiring to the WH...

Blue wire to blue wire...

Green wire to green wire...

Brown wire to orange(Gas control) wire...


Here's a pic of the "New" indicator panel... Sweet!


And both back in place... The switch on the right will control gas operation and the switch in the indicator panel will control electric operation...
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:53 PM   #13
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Gary--

That separate "Atwood" switch on the 299 only controls the 110v heating element. Before the wreck, the 110v function on the heater was working fine.

I can't recall whether we had any problems with the gas operation, which IIRC is controlled only be 12vdc wiring. Those push-on connectors on the heater control board get a little corroded, and that can make the gas operation flaky. I had some problems with keeping the gas heater lit, but I think those were just the usual dirt and spider webs.

Please remember to leak-test that heater before using it.

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Old 12-24-2009, 06:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan47
Gary--

That separate "Atwood" switch on the 299 only controls the 110v heating element. Before the wreck, the 110v function on the heater was working fine.

I can't recall whether we had any problems with the gas operation, which IIRC is controlled only be 12vdc wiring. Those push-on connectors on the heater control board get a little corroded, and that can make the gas operation flaky. I had some problems with keeping the gas heater lit, but I think those were just the usual dirt and spider webs.

Please remember to leak-test that heater before using it.

Stan
Stan,

The Atwood switch in the 311 was originally for the gas. To turn the electric on, you would have had to open a cabinet door and flip the switch on the WH itself. I intend to keep the switch for gas use and the electric will be controlled by the rocker switch on the indicator panel. I will also mark them plainly, so there will not be any confusion.

I have the WH sitting on our dining room table right now. I also got the plumbing to it, out of the 299. I am going to fab up a test rig, to pressure test it.

As soon as I get the wiring figured out, it'll be tested and ready to go!
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Old 12-24-2009, 06:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMD_Driver

Here's the outer ring from the 299, that is going into the 311. I had to cut and splice the small white ground wire between the two. You can also see a small red wire that is piggy-backed onto the red wire for the WH. I spliced that into the small red wire, that goes to the circuit board connector. It was connected to that same wire, on the other connector.


After mounting the assembly back in it's place and connected the pump wires back together, I am left with three wires. The gray and red wires are the WH switch wires and the pink one goes to the DSI fault.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but....

The pink wire should be connected to the blue from the WH...

The gray wire should hook to the white(Electric control) wire from the WH.

The red wire should go to 12+


As far as the existing 311 wiring to the WH...

Blue wire to blue wire...

Green wire to green wire...

Brown wire to orange(Gas control) wire...
Gary

You either redid something with the original F311 gas switch or something is a muck.

Tell me where I go wrong in understanding what you did.

You left the original F311 gas switch wired the way it always was. This also includes the red pilot light. Yes/No? If this is true then the blue fault (DSI fault) signal wire from the heater is going to that red indicator like it always used to be.

You converted the tank panel to the T299 double rocker switch. Cool! I thought it would fit. You converted what use to be the gas rocker switch to being the new electric switch.

Did I understand that correct?

If so then you have no visual indication that the gas mode is enabled. That was just that way it was on the F311 originally. The little pilot light between the 2 rocker switches on the tank panel no longer will be used for DSI fault as the fault is on the F311 gas switch plate. So the pink wire you are referring to does not go anywhere. The blue wire from the heater on the DSI fault would be going over to the Gas switch plate.

On the T299 Sunline did it different. They used the Atwood switch plate (the rocker and the red light next to it) to run the electric heat. They paralleled off the switch to turn on the red light and let you know that it was enabled on electric.

Then on the tank panel the red rocker switch is a lighted switch. When you flip it, it glows red so you know the gas mode is enabled. Then the DSI fault went to the little pilot light between the 2 rocker switches.

IF you want a light indication for both gas is on or electric is on you have 2 options.

1. Change the wires back to the way the T299 was wired. Use the White Atwood plate with red light in the place of your F311 gas switch. That white switch plate will then be electric. The light will glow red when electric is on. Convert gas operation to the red rocker switch on the tank panel that glows red when you flip it on. Then put DSI fault on the little pilot light between the 2 switches.

2. Leave the F311 gas switch in it’s present location. Unhook the red light at that switch plate from the DSI fault. Jumper the red light on the down stream side of the switch so when the gas is on the light is on. Then at the tank panel, the red rocker is for electric and you put the blue DSI fault on the Pink pilot light. The only down side to this is the DSI fault is next to the Electric option and the Reset words are on the gas cover plate.

OK what did I not understand right? I wish they used wired number instead of colors....

Hope thus helps

John
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Old 12-24-2009, 07:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB

Gary

You either redid something with the original F311 gas switch or something is a muck.

Tell me where I go wrong in understanding what you did.

You left the original F311 gas switch wired the way it always was. This also includes the red pilot light. Yes/No? If this is true then the blue fault (DSI fault) signal wire from the heater is going to that red indicator like it always used to be.
John, I did leave the original gas switch as it came from the factory. It does have the red pilot light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
You converted the tank panel to the T299 double rocker switch. Cool! I thought it would fit. You converted what use to be the gas rocker switch to being the new electric switch.

Did I understand that correct?
I did intend to use the tank panel switch as the control for the electric side of the WH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
If so then you have no visual indication that the gas mode is enabled. That was just that way it was on the F311 originally. The little pilot light between the 2 rocker switches on the tank panel no longer will be used for DSI fault as the fault is on the F311 gas switch plate. So the pink wire you are referring to does not go anywhere. The blue wire from the heater on the DSI fault would be going over to the Gas switch plate.
The rocker switch on the tank panel is also illuminated. That way, I was planning on that being the "Visual indication" and still using the little pilot for the DSI fault indication. I could wire the Atwood switch to illuminate, when the electric is on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
On the T299 Sunline did it different. They used the Atwood switch plate (the rocker and the red light next to it) to run the electric heat. They paralleled off the switch to turn on the red light and let you know that it was enabled on electric.

Then on the tank panel the red rocker switch is a lighted switch. When you flip it, it glows red so you know the gas mode is enabled. Then the DSI fault went to the little pilot light between the 2 rocker switches.

IF you want a light indication for both gas is on or electric is on you have 2 options.

1. Change the wires back to the way the T299 was wired. Use the White Atwood plate with red light in the place of your F311 gas switch. That white switch plate will then be electric. The light will glow red when electric is on. Convert gas operation to the red rocker switch on the tank panel that glows red when you flip it on. Then put DSI fault on the little pilot light between the 2 switches.

2. Leave the F311 gas switch in it’s present location. Unhook the red light at that switch plate from the DSI fault. Jumper the red light on the down stream side of the switch so when the gas is on the light is on. Then at the tank panel, the red rocker is for electric and you put the blue DSI fault on the Pink pilot light. The only down side to this is the DSI fault is next to the Electric option and the Reset words are on the gas cover plate.

OK what did I not understand right? I wish they used wired number instead of colors....

Hope thus helps

John
I don't have a problem making the electric control use the Atwood switch and the gas being on the tank panel. If I do that, I'll need to swap a few wires around. I guess I'll spend some time tracing down wires, to see which option is the best and least confusing.

I have plenty of wire from the 299, to wire it any way I see fit. Before I swapped the 299"s outer ring into place, I was a bit confused as to how it worked.
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Old 12-24-2009, 07:50 PM   #17
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It looks like there were 2 ways that Sunline wired the DSI. On my 2002 T-2363 the 110 volt is completely seperate and has no connection to the gas relay or control board. That matches one of the drawings Gary showed at the top of the thread. There is a seperate thermal switch and thermal overload switch on the back side of my tank where the rocker switch is mounted along with the AC heating element, all inside a small junction box. I always assumed all Sunlines were the same. I turn on the AC heating element from the breaker panel on my converter. The switch over the sink is just for the gas operation.

I had to replace my water tank when I bought my "almost new" Sunline because the previous owner didn't drain the tank the one winter he owned it. The crack was the one thing I could not see when inspecting it. I became aquainted with the wiring and plumbing of that tank very quickly after becomming a Sunline owner!
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Old 12-24-2009, 08:26 PM   #18
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Gene

The actual Atwood HW heaters changed in the 2004 models. Gary and Kitty just happend to have 2, 2003's that where made the older way.

The newer ones use a relay to trun on the electric element sent from a signal off the main PC board.

Both methods work, most likley the newer method is cheaper to build.

John
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Old 12-24-2009, 08:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMD_Driver

The rocker switch on the tank panel is also illuminated. That way, I was planning on that being the "Visual indication" and still using the little pilot for the DSI fault indication. I could wire the Atwood switch to illuminate, when the electric is on.
Ok this is what go me. If the original big red lens up by the gas switch was DSI fault how where you planning on using the little pilot light between the 2 switches on the tank panel?

True they could both illuminate when a DSI fault but didn't think you where after that.

The good news is now all the wires are up in that fold down switch center. You can move them around to do most any combo one can think of....

The original setup of the T311 and no visual indication of the gas being on, I'm sure got someone some time or another. One had to really focus on which way the unmarked rocker switch was pushed.

The new new ones use a 3 switch setup like this. My T2499 has this. It seems Sunline only used the big red Atwood switch and double tank monitor for the early part of the 2004 models. The T2499 is made in May 04 and it already had the 3 switch unit.


Cindy actually like the big red Atwood light on electric. She says she can see it better and never gets it mixed up with the gas switch.

Also a tid bit of triva. You have a slide kill switch next to the in and out slide switch in that fold down switch panel. Our has that kill switch too but up in a cabinet. In the 2005 models there is no more kill switch. It went by the way side along with the transit bars…

John
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Old 12-24-2009, 09:22 PM   #20
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I finally got it done and followed your suggestion John....

I traced the red wire on the Atwood switch and it ended up being a short piece of #12 wire and was connected to the green wire to the WH, as well as a standard white ground wire. I replaced it with a piece of green wire from the 299.

The blue wire on the switch was a 12+..

The gray and brown wires did stay the same, all the way down to the WH.




What I ended up doing, was this:

Gray wire now goes to the white wire on the WH. It is now the WH relay wire for 120v operation.

Brown wire now goes to the blue wire on the WH and the pink wire on the tank panel DSI fault light.

Green wire is still the 12v- (Ground)

I ran a new orange wire, to the WH and it is to turn on the gas.

I also moved the gas control to the tank panel switch. The Atwood switch turns on the electric part of the WH. Both rocker switches illuminate properly, when turned on.

Sorry for the poor image quality... I had to use my Blackberry..


One thing to note... The blue wire from the wire nut on the WH side, was connected to a gray wire that went to the Atwood switch originally. There was no blue wire that ran to the switch panel, except the 12v+ wire.


Edit: I did use a test light, to verify all of my wiring. Each wire works, for it's intended purpose. I am going to try pressure testing the WH in the morning. Wish me luck!
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2007 Peterson Excel Limited 30RKE
2014 Ford F350XLT SRW Crew Cab, Long bed 6.7PSD

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