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Old 06-07-2012, 10:11 AM   #1
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Water heater replacment questions

Old one doesn't work, and apparently was a leaker too.

I want to replace this old 4 gallon heater with this new 6 gallon one: Suburban 6 Gallon Water Heater SW6D - $274.99.

The extra two gallons change the dimensions only in depth by 3". While it gets me closer to my converter (which I do NOT want to move), it shouldn't be a problem do you think?

Is it normal to have all this plumbing attached? Anything I should know before I get into this?

Thanks for any help folks!

Frank
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Old 06-07-2012, 11:59 AM   #2
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Thinking that the bottom connection is cold IN and the top is Hot Out. The white hose and brass fittings are the bypass (used to winterize the water system without filling the hot water heater with RV antifreeze -or- in this case probably installed to bypass the leaking tank.) If correct, one of the bottom lines might be routed from the onboard water storage tank and pump, the second from the tap water connection. The top two lines must send the hot water in two different directs, perhaps to the bath and another to the kitchen. Mine is not configured this way as I have one line in and one line out (and my self installed bypass connecting the two.) When I replaced mine, I installed the Atwood Water Heater - LP/Electric which fit as a direct replacement for the original but added the electric feature (and required that I install a third circuit breaker and wiring) but that was years ago. It is my understanding that Atwood and Suburban are produced by the same manufacturer now. I wouldn't expect that three inches closer to the converter would cause a problem because the new heaters appear to be better insulated than the old (heat being the issue.) The other consideration is how the the new mounting plate sits in the camper: size and lip height; and propane connection (if routing to a different location on the new tank - do you have any leeway in length of propane line or will you need to add an extension. Camping World has proved helpful to me over the years. Perhaps you could call them to discuss your intentions. Good Luck!
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:16 PM   #3
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Boy, you are good! The way the lines lead would lead me to believe you are probably right-on with your suggestions. I wondered about this because when I looked at some videos on installation I sure didn't see so many lines!

I don't want a dual power one, as I really don't have the load center space for another circuit. Well, I do, but I would prefer it be for A/C. This new one does use power for an interior switch, but maybe 12V? Not sure. I want to be able to run it without 110V if possible.

I believe the new heaters are way better in terms of insulation, but I also don't want problems with my converter. I think it will be okay to go 6 gallons, and back 3 more inches. Of course, that measurement is compared to a modern 4 gallon heater, no idea how it compares with a 30 year old one. Sometime soon I will measure that space from inside, like where I was taking pics, make sure it's okay.

Seems to me I measured the opening and made sure the new version would fit and it would. I'll double check, but 4 gallon or 6 doesn't make any difference for those dimensions - the only difference is the depth. Get bigger and other dimensions change. I bet they have kept that opening the same all these years.

We've only had this camper a few weeks, and never had one with stuff like this (had/have a stripped down Sunspot) so bear with me, this is all new to me. Gotta get the old Sunspot cleaned up for sale soon!

Thanks again,

Frank
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Old 06-07-2012, 05:03 PM   #4
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It should not bother the converter they are pretty well insulated the pilot light alone will keep the water hot all night long.
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Old 06-07-2012, 05:08 PM   #5
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Thanks mainah. I'll do some more measuring before the weekend is over.

By the way, I hope to pick up some 10 ga copper tomorrow and get the T-1550 raised to find earth ground connections and improve them. I've looked the best I can and just can't see anything, so I'm going to back it up onto car ramps and see what I can find. There should be one from the load center and one from the converter right?

Frank
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:04 PM   #6
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Maybe be just one that feeds through to both it will be there attached to the frame some where close the the converter and the breaker panel.
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:09 AM   #7
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Well, I'm gonna have to get this baby up in the air so I can get under it better to look. There's nothing on the back of the rear crossmember, but the trailer is so low I can't see in front of it. If it's there, it's a long ways away from the converter, but we'll see. The heavy gauge aluminum ground coming out of the panel is attached to some kind of small bolt at the bottom of the compartment where the power cable is coiled. I'm not real sure I can reach it, but I also don't see anything under the trailer at that point, which is funny, because it is right next to the exterior. With luck, I'll figure this out today or tomorrow and will keep y'all posted.

I know one thing I need to do soon is wire brush and scrape the chassis and give it a good coat of preventative coating of some kind. I don't know if I want to go to the trouble of POR-15, but will need to do something.

Frank
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:13 PM   #8
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I rolled the T-1550 onto some car ramps so I could get a better look underneath. If there was ever a ground attachment to this frame, I sure couldn't find it. I checked every rail and crossmember, took pictures of hard to get to spaces to check even better, and nothing. Guess I need to get into the power cable compartment under the load center and see what the heck this aluminum ground attaches to. I can see it is somehow bolted down at the bottom, but am not sure I can get at it. Got 10' of single strand 6 gauge copper today. Didn't have any 10 gauge or even 8 at Lowe's, so I figured 6 should do the trick.

The converter is right in the back left of center and the load center a foot or so in front of it off to the left side. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Frank
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:31 PM   #9
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Frank ....you may have to wait until Monday to get an answer....unless some of our guru's @ Buttonwood brought their computers along with them!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:08 PM   #10
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No problem. Got the old 15 amp cable out, should have my 30/20 mini-breaker by mid-week, and the trailer can stay on the ramps till I figure this out. I may figure it out myself, but am unsure what or where to run a ground off the converter. Sure doesn't appear to be one. Only ground I can find is for the trailer running lights (I think). It's right up front tied to a small screw into the bottom of the trailer body. I have followed every wire underneath. Other than the brakes, they all go up into the trailer, or come out and go up again.

I want to tie grounds from the converter and load center together someplace in the back. Then when I want to take off camping, I won't have to worry about this stuff!

Frank
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:16 PM   #11
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I don't think that wire to the body was a factory job. It looks like someones "quick fix" because a light didn't work.

My thought was that the ground, when it existed, may have been a sheet metal screw into the TOP of the frame, going through the floor or some hidden opening to the top of the metal frame. When I pulled my converter out to do some wiring I noticed the bare copper ground wire went across the floor under the shower and then into the floor. Since I have insulation and a sheet of Darco under the trailer I can't see where it is really connected but I do know there is a solid frame ground.

On another note, you don't need #10 for a safety ground. Even house wiring 10-2 with ground uses a #12 for the ground.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
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I don't think that wire to the body was a factory job. It looks like someones "quick fix" because a light didn't work.

My thought was that the ground, when it existed, may have been a sheet metal screw into the TOP of the frame, going through the floor or some hidden opening to the top of the metal frame. When I pulled my converter out to do some wiring I noticed the bare copper ground wire went across the floor under the shower and then into the floor. Since I have insulation and a sheet of Darco under the trailer I can't see where it is really connected but I do know there is a solid frame ground.

On another note, you don't need #10 for a safety ground. Even house wiring 10-2 with ground uses a #12 for the ground.
I agree Gene. the one ground I did find sure doesn't look factory. Then again, all the running lights work correctly.

I don't see any bare wire coming out of the converter box. I'll look again tomorrow, but I removed the rear lounge seat and got a good look at it tonight looking especially for a bare copper ground wire. Nothing there I could see.

Everything I read and see says #10 for 30 amp, so I went looking for 10, but could only find 6. It will do fine. I think...

Frank
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Old 06-08-2012, 11:16 PM   #13
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Frank,

In case you cannot find a bare copper wire in your converter,

On DC common to trailer frame out of the converter, it may not be a bare copper wire. It may be a white insulated wire and most likely is.

Bare copper for a actual earth ground would be more on the AC side of things.

For DC common, somewhere up front the battery negative lead goes to the frame and the converter. That wire may be the converter tie for DC common to trailer frame.

The AC earth ground is used to prevent electrical shock from a hot and or stray 120 VAC when it connects to the trailer frame. DC common to trailer frame is used to be part of the DC common circuit for things like trailer brakes and body lights etc.

Hope this helps in your search and destroy mission.

John

PS, the metal casing of the convertor should have an earth ground going to it most likely from the 120 VAC piece of romex that powers up the converter. Since the casing is grounded by the incoming line you are not going to find a bare earth ground coming out of the convertor to the trailer frame. That earth ground would exist from the 120 VAC grounds buss bar in the 120 Sq D box to the trailer frame.

I use the words earth ground and DC common to show the differences. DC common can be nick named ground, but it may not be earth ground.
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Old 06-09-2012, 04:36 AM   #14
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Thanks for the help here John, I think I get it.

My DC ground is probably that white wire going to a screw on the front of the trailer (see pic above) then wouldn't you think? The 2 wires coming out of the battery (white and black) go up into the trailer, along with a blue wire from the old Bragman switch. (By the way, my new one should be here this coming week.)

So I need to get a better handle on this earth ground deal. Would it make sense trying to get through the bottom of the trailer and ground AC directly to the frame in a place I could see it?

Frank
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:08 AM   #15
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Is it okay to run a bare copper ground line down the same hole as a copper gas line? If it is, I have an easy way to run a new earth ground. See the pics. I could then bring the ground someplace I could easily see and get at it, either on the inside of the frame rail there or to the outside.

Also, I got into the converter and water heater compartment this morning. It needed cleaning bad, and I wanted to figure out where the converter ground was. After I cleaned everything up, I followed the only single white wire I could find out of the converter. It went up between the back of the trailer and the water heater tank where I couldn't see it. So I took off the exterior water heater cover to see where it was going, but nothing there. So back inside and tried to just follow it with my hand, when lo and behold, out it came. It was attached to a ground buss that was not attached to anything. I think I can figure this one out...

Frank
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:19 AM   #16
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Thanks for the help here John, I think I get it.

My DC ground is probably that white wire going to a screw on the front of the trailer (see pic above) then wouldn't you think? The 2 wires coming out of the battery (white and black) go up into the trailer, along with a blue wire from the old Bragman switch. (By the way, my new one should be here this coming week.)

So I need to get a better handle on this earth ground deal. Would it make sense trying to get through the bottom of the trailer and ground AC directly to the frame in a place I could see it?

Frank
Frank,

That little white wire that "someone" added to the RV siding is "not" the battery to trailer frame DC common ground. It is not heavy enough wire. I think someone was trying to get body lights to work and was desperate and grounded the side and the lights started to work.

The DC common frame ground should be a wire or combination of wires that originates at the battery negative post, one part of it connects to the converter 12 VDC (-) which is a big thick wire. That white wire should be as thick as the red 12 VDC hot wire on the battery. It may then have a separate common wire and end up bolted to the trailer frame some where if it did not yet corrode off.

On the AC earth ground, yes if you have made sure there is no 12, 10 or heaver gage ground wire that connects in the Sq D box AC earth ground buss bar to the trailer frame, you should add one. This is for personal saftey to prevent agasint a schock from the 120 VAC system.
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:47 AM   #17
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Is it okay to run a bare copper ground line down the same hole as a copper gas line? If it is, I have an easy way to run a new earth ground. See the pics. I could then bring the ground someplace I could easily see and get at it, either on the inside of the frame rail there or to the outside.

Frank
Frank,

As per electrical code a gas pipe is suppose to be grounded so it does not carry any electrical current by accident. Somewhere....here we go again the main gas pipe under the camper should have a grounding wire, maybe white maybe not, between the gas pipe and the trailer frame.

See mine


It is grounded to the trailer frame which creates a ground path for the DC side of things and the trailer frame is earth grounded also which take care of the AC side of things. If your camper doe not have this grounding wire, once you are done cleaning everything else up, add one of these too.

Now to using the hole in the camper to fish a earth ground wire down along the gas tube to get to the trailer frame, is this OK to do?

I myself do not know where in the NEC code it allows or prohibits this. So I will give you my "opinion". I myself would find another location. Providing an earth ground as a means of protection is for the one time when things go wrong and stray current ends up where it is not suppose to be. If the odds align and you have that problem (your bad luck) then you are inducing current in the gas pipe that may or may not be a problem. I would not take that chance.

Now to your mystery DC common ground wire...... It looks like that aluminum connector corroded off of something. You onto something here. Good hunting....

John
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:29 PM   #18
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The only ground I can find on this trailer is that owner-added one tied to a screw on the front of the trailer John. No other grounds that I can find, and I have been all over the bottom and inside of this trailer. No grounds on the propane line, no idea where that ground from the converter was going (it's the heavy white wire coming out of the converter and around it and ended up cut off at that buss - you can see it where it was behind the hot water tank), and no clue what the aluminum wire was grounded to that I removed from the old load center and moved to the new one. You can see in pictures that it is connected to a screw at the bottom of the cable compartment, but I can't get to the screw.

I did find something underneath the back of the trailer that might have been the ground connection, but I couldn't find its opposing end inside. I tried sticking my 6 gauge copper line up by it and finally got it to go, but then could not find it inside, so assume it was going up between the outside of the trailer and the inner paneling in the back.

Once I figure out where to run this earth ground, is it okay to use an aluminum buss on the steel frame?

I'm off to NAPA to get a POR15 kit for the frame. It is badly rusted and I am going to try and fix that best I can sometime soon.

Thanks again for the help!!

Frank
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:28 AM   #19
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The metal piece on the bottom of this lug would have had been longer and had a round hole for a mounting bolt in it, i.e. It's broke off. It would have been mounted to the frame with a bolt. That's how my T276SR is grounded anyhow.

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Old 06-11-2012, 07:45 AM   #20
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I agree Mack, that mounting hole for the buss corroded off, but I'll be darned if I can figure out what or where it was attached to! Somewhere over between the back of the trailer and the water heater tank. Seeing I'm replacing the water heater anyways, I am considering removing it and doing a bit of surgery so I could still use the door for access until I get a new water heater.

Looks like I'm gonna have to drill a hole through the trailer floor somewhere for my earth ground. That earth ground from the converter will get attached through a new single buss to my 6 ga. bare copper and go to a 4 position buss on the frame somewhere near the load center and converter. I will clean the frame real well before attaching the buss. The 4 position buss I got has a machine screw for attachment, so I will drill and tap a hole for it. Once that is done, I am wire brushing the frame, cleaning it well, and coating it with POR-15 while I have the trailer up on ramps. Got a quart of the stuff Saturday.

I got our Sunspot just about ready to sell yesterday. Gail is doing a few things inside (making new curtains mostly), and it will probably go up for sale next weekend as a 700# aluminum tent on wheels! I'm going to miss that bed, it sure was comfortable. I'm already planning on a new one for the T-1550, made from the same stuff (3" high density foam). Gail says she could alter the covering to fit it, so I'm on the hunt. Also, Gail is about to buy 6 or 7 yards of high quality material and make new window shades for the T-1550 too.

With luck, I'll have my 30/20 circuit breaker today or tomorrow and can get the new 30 amp cable hooked up, get the new earth grounds in, and get ready for more camping!

Frank
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