Water heater and A/C? - Page 2

mainah · 05-22-2012, 03:41 PM

I think they make mini breakers for that box that have 2 breakers together on one pole. Looks like they are feeding 2 runs from one breaker probably the converter and the outlets. A #12 wire is good for 20 amps.

frank_a · 05-22-2012, 06:35 PM

Sure enough, they do run two lines from one circuit. One on the left goes to the frig and maybe from there to an outlet on the front wall at the dinette. On the right goes to an outlet on the left rear closet near the lounge. There is also an outlet above the sink in the cupboard bottom.

Can I get a bigger electric panel for more circuits? It doesn't look like Gould is even around anymore, so not sure where I'd even get a breaker.

Thanks for the help guys, I need it!

Frank

Jim-Bev-2363 · 05-22-2012, 07:09 PM

You can probably still get the breakers for that box. I just went to Home Depot for one for my garage and there was quite a variety of them. Glad I took the old one with me.

frank_a · 05-22-2012, 07:28 PM

My concern is how I could run a combo electric/propane water heater and A/C out of that little box. Shouldn't they be dedicated circuits? Or maybe just forgo the combo hot water heater and go straight propane?

Frank

Jim-Bev-2363 · 05-23-2012, 05:47 AM

Here is what mine looks like. It has a 30Amp Main Breaker at the top slot, a 15Amp marked General Purpose, a 15Amp marked Microwave, a 20Amp marked Air Conditioner, a 15Amp marked Converter and the bottom is another marked General Purpose 15Amp.

The box itself is a 100Amp rated box. The breakers are double, mini breakers and there is a empty slot for more goodies.

Since your going to upgrade your unit why not go to a bigger box, at least a four breaker capacity, and using the mini breakers you should have room for 8 breakers and plenty of capacity.

mainah · 05-23-2012, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank_a

Sure enough, they do run two lines from one circuit. One on the left goes to the frig and maybe from there to an outlet on the front wall at the dinette. On the right goes to an outlet on the left rear closet near the lounge. There is also an outlet above the sink in the cupboard bottom.

Can I get a bigger electric panel for more circuits? It doesn't look like Gould is even around anymore, so not sure where I'd even get a breaker.

Thanks for the help guys, I need it!

Frank

I would take the one breaker out and go to the big box store and see if you can't match it up lot of different names but not that many breakers. You can probably find a twin breaker that will fit. Usually what they do in an RV box is use a 30 amp backwards the power cord connects to the output side of the breaker along with the converter wiring and feeds the buss bar when you turn it on I like the ideal of a main disconnect but you could wire it the way it is now and have 4 circuits. Breakers work both ways so it's a safe thing to do. If you can find the dual breakers a 30 and a 20 for the main and A/C and another with 2 15's and you have 3 circuits. I would skip the electric water heater it's just more current you don't need after all it is a small camper.

frank_a · 05-23-2012, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363

Here is what mine looks like. It has a 30Amp Main Breaker at the top slot, a 15Amp marked General Purpose, a 15Amp marked Microwave, a 20Amp marked Air Conditioner, a 15Amp marked Converter and the bottom is another marked General Purpose 15Amp.

The box itself is a 100Amp rated box. The breakers are double, mini breakers and there is a empty slot for more goodies.

Since your going to upgrade your unit why not go to a bigger box, at least a four breaker capacity, and using the mini breakers you should have room for 8 breakers and plenty of capacity.

Jim, is that a residential box or travel trailer one? I looked all over the web for travel trailer electrical boxes and could not find anything that resembles my little one or the one you have. Any guidance would be appreciated! I would love to upgrade to one like that.

Your 30 amp main breaker is the feed from outside right?

I still don't get why my box is rated 60 amp and only has two places for breakers. One is already doubled up, and if we want A/C, that's all I can do (I think) with what we have.

Thanks,

Frank

Jim-Bev-2363 · 05-23-2012, 07:39 AM

Frank, Yes a residential OR camper. It is a 110V box and doesn't know if it is riding or sitting still.

Like Mainah said, "If you can find the dual breakers a 30 and a 20 for the main and A/C and another with 2 15's and you have 3 circuits. I would skip the electric water heater it's just more current you don't need after all it is a small camper.".

I'd just go with the LP water heater. You have two bottles up front and will not use that much hot water. You'd have to use campground electric for a long time to regain the cost of the electric heater.

frank_a · 05-23-2012, 09:17 AM

Sounds good guys, only thing is, Gould is no longer around. I picked up this 70 amp box today that I believe will fit, is 2 spaces for 4 circuits, and is commonly available stuff (DoubleD). Box cost me 14 bucks, breakers are 6 bucks each, so it's not expensive to swap out the old one. What do you guys think?

Thanks again,

Frank

Jim-Bev-2363 · 05-23-2012, 09:33 AM

And how much were the breakers that will fit your old box? Did you take the old one out and check it against what is available?

If Gould is no more there are still breakers that should fit it and that is all you needed. But since you've already spent the money for the 'new' box it sounds like you want to go ahead and replace the old box. That means you can scrap the old box and the breakers, unless that old breaker will fit the new box, and it very well might.

Do you see the old box has more "guts" than the new one? Might be a reason it is so cheap.

I guess you could use both boxes and have more than enuff capacity.

frank_a · 05-23-2012, 10:13 AM

No Jim, I did not take the old one out. "Old" is right, NLA stuff.

I know the new one I got looks cheaper, but it is rated for 70 amps. I doubt they could rate it like that if the government doesn't agree.

If we pass on an electric & propane water heater and just go for propane, all I need is one more breaker. I put this DoubleD in and have current tech. Plus I don't have to figure out what breaker to get, DoubleD makes it easy, so for less that 30 bucks I have new panel, new breakers, and in current design.

I can take this new box back if I want. I'm just looking for alternatives that will work okay.

Thanks,

Frank

Jim-Bev-2363 · 05-23-2012, 02:38 PM

Frank,

The "old one out" I was talking about is just the breaker, not the entire box. Hope there was no confusion there.

Since you are going to buy a new box anyway, why not buy one bigger than what you already have? That way you can really install that electric/propane water heater your thinking about. What you just bought is the same as what you have.

frank_a · 05-23-2012, 04:18 PM

Problem is Jim, the box can be no deeper that 3". That is VERY limiting. Yes, this new one is no different, but it fits where the old one was, and breakers are readily available, and less than $3 each. I need one now, then another when we can afford the A/C unit. Gee, I looked all over the web today to see what breaker I need for one of those Coleman Polar Cub units, but no biggie. When I get it, I assume instructions will tell me what size breaker it needs. We'll just go with a propane water heater, and plug a little microwave in existing plugs.

Fixing the old Sunspot up, already got a buyer! Needs some structural support on the bottom on the right side, but to make it look symmetrical, I'll do the same thing on both sides. New curtains, and a new canopy strip along the right side, and it will be ready.

My buddy that owns an auto/truck garage said he would turn those brake drums if I really wanted him to, but seeing they're NLA, I'd be better off lightly sanding them and sticking them back on till I could afford a modern axle. They're 10 X 1 1/2" and we'll go to 10 X whatever is the next step up from what we have (2 1/4"?).

Frank

mainah · 05-23-2012, 05:56 PM

You will need a ground buss bar for your box it is imperative that the neutral be isolated from the ground you can not connect the neutral and the grounds together like you would in a house. The little bump to the right is for a ground buss it has a threaded screw hole. If the neutral buss has a grounding screw it must be removed. It’s all about safety in case some thing is wired backwards, if not you could end up with a hot trailer frame and you could be in for a real shock when you grab the door handle. I assume the box will take the mini breakers 2 per pole?

frank_a · 05-23-2012, 07:35 PM

When I replace the box, it will be wired exactly as the one I'm replacing. I will use the ground buss bars in the old box with the new one. So when I take a picture of it done, it will look just the same as the one I have now, just a few inches longer.

I don't know what a mini breaker is. I bought one 15 amp breaker today so I have it when I'm ready to do this. It is not critical right now. It becomes critical when we can afford the A/C unit. I just need to replace it by then, and determine what amp breaker I need for the A/C.

Thanks,

Frank

mainah · 05-24-2012, 05:02 AM

The mini breakers have 2 trips per breaker and fit where the standard one does that would give you 4 breakers. The A/C wire is a #12 good for a max of 20 amps. Every thing else should be 15 amp because of the wiring that's all ready in place it's only a #14 wire good for a max of 15 amps.

frank_a · 05-24-2012, 06:51 AM

Great info, thanks! My current box has one circuit breaker with 2 wires coming into it on a ring terminal under the breaker screw. I figured I'd do the same thing when I put in the new box? I'll pick up a 20 amp breaker for the A/C and be ready.

How do you power the second circuit, just a jumper from the existing one to the new one?

Also, what sort of power line to connect to campground power will I need with A/C? I take it the 15 amp one I have now won't do the trick. 30 amp is common and should do it?

Frank

**JohnB** · 05-24-2012, 07:09 AM

Hi Frank,

Sorry I'm late to the party... been busy.

I see Mainah already pointed this out. This is 110% spot on. When you move the ground buss bar, use your meter on ohms and check that there is no continuity between AC neutral and earth ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mainah

You will need a ground buss bar for your box it is imperative that the neutral be isolated from the ground you can not connect the neutral and the grounds together like you would in a house. The little bump to the right is for a ground buss it has a threaded screw hole. If the neutral buss has a grounding screw it must be removed. It’s all about safety in case some thing is wired backwards, if not you could end up with a hot trailer frame and you could be in for a real shock when you grab the door handle. I assume the box will take the mini breakers 2 per pole?

Now to double breakers, they look like this. This is out of my 1st camper. A 30 amp supply and then broken down into 5 circuits.

Here can see the AC neutral and the grounds separate and this is a plastic box so there is not current path between the 2. Your AC neutral should be isolated but check it.

Here is my present camper after I upgraded the convertor. Same setup

Like mainah said, the 1st breaker is a combo 30 and 20 amp. The 30 is back fed where the incoming no 10 awg wire goes. In my case that powers up a buss bar in the back. In your case you will need to run a no 10 awg jumper to power up yours on the incoming power lugs.

See the back of the breaker. The buss slot shares both the 30 and the 20 amp side, you just need to jumper the 2 lugs up top to power up the 2nd breake slot. Must be no 10 awg wire mininum.

The 20 amp then goes to the AC unit.

Next in your case is 2, 15 amp circuits. One would feed your existing 10 amp wiring the 2nd could feed your HW heater if you wanted it to.

Here is our 1 and only Sunline wiring diagram. It is off my prior 2004 T2499 camper. It shows how they split up a 30 amp circuit. This matches the power convertor I first showed above.
http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=357

As far as having the electric portion of the HW heater, that is a personal choice. My 32 foot camper still only had a 30 amp supply and I even have a micro wave. Regardless of camper size you have to do current (amps) management. You cannot turn on the AC, the HW heater on electric, run this fridge on electric and plug in an electric frying pan… it just will not going to work. When the AC runs I use the HW on gas and I only turn it on when I need it. Gas takes about 10 to 15 minutes to heat, electric takes about 20 to 25. Flip them on when you start to have supper and when done eating the water is hot. Same for taking a shower, just flip it on 20 some minutes before hand.

The dorm fridge you have now, what is the name plate on it say if the current draw? My Gas/electric RV fridge uses a 325 watt electric element. Odds are high your dorm fridge is pulling more to run the compressor unit. This means you may not be able to use a micro wave but you do not have one now anyway. This is going to be all about choices. Or shut the fridge down when you run the microwave. Sooner or later you or the DW will forget and pop goes that 15 amp breaker.

In the current 30 amp Sunline power setup the breakers are like that diagram. The HW heater has a dedicated 15amp, the AC unit a dedicated 20, the microwave a dedicated 15, the galley appliance plug has a dedicated 15 amp as folks plug toasters and electric fry pans in generally in that location. The rest are on shared circuits.

Be back later, hope this helps

John

frank_a · 05-24-2012, 07:28 AM

Very helpful John, thanks! So all I need is a jumper of at least #10 gauge wire from the powered lug on my existing circuit to the (soon-to-be) A/C circuit. Cool (no pun intended...).

Couple things - gonna go with just propane for hot water. No need for power, propane sounds better anyways. Plus this camper is already set up with two propane tanks.

My existing box is metal, as is my new one. In my existing one,the outside power cable comes in with black to the breaker, white to a bar on the right that is protected from touching metal by a piece of cardboard that is part of the bar assembly. Green goes to the bar on the left that is not isolated along with bare copper wires, and a grey wire that comes in from somewhere below (I can't track it). I wonder what the grey wire is?

Too bad I'm limited by 3" depth!

Tell me, when I replace the box with my new one, do I need to make sure the converter is unhooked? I know enough to not have power connected from outside, but know nothing about these converters. I like life...

Frank

**JohnB** · 05-24-2012, 07:34 AM

Frank,

By the way, the box you have is Square D, not Double D unless something else was bought out....

The Square D Legacy - Schneider Electric Schneider Electric

You are looking for a 1 space tandem pole breaker. 30amp and 20 amp for 1 slot and then a 1 space tandem pole breaker, both 15 amps. = qty 2 physical parts, uses 2 slots, creates 4 circuits

I can't find it exactly the 30/20 comos part number to link you

See page 15 in their Home Line of procuts Page 17 of the pdf.
http://static.schneider-electric.us/...0110PL9401.pdf

Wait, here it is

Here is the 30/20 breaker
HOMT3020 Product Detail - Schneider Electric

http://products.schneider-electric.u...countrycode=us

Here is the 15/15 breaker
HOMT1515 Product Detail - Schneider Electric

This should help when you go back to the store