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Old 04-30-2017, 07:21 AM   #1
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Two new problems-related?

Last weekend, camping in our 2007 2499, we discovered two things that weren't working, (although there were no problems before that).

As soon as we first tried the furnace, probably Saturday morning, the fan came on then a little heat and then the fan shut off. No heat after that, just a fan running and shutting off after about a minute once I shut it off and started over.
I pulled the outside furnace cover and saw a blinking red light indicating a lock out fault. I printed a troubleshooting procedure for this and will be looking into it further when I have more time (cold weather no longer a concern), but I mentioned it in case it was somehow related to my other issue. (Any insights on this are appreciated though.)

The other problem is with the outlets on the number 3 circuit that feeds most of the outlets (all but the galley outlet), the refrigerator and the converter. At least that's what I see on the T-2499 wiring diagram here; http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/do...2499wiring.pdf
I know that several of the outlets on that circuit worked Saturday morning, because I was able to charge my cell phone on the bedroom TV outlet overnight and we made coffee in the electric coffee maker on the entertainment center outlet Saturday morning. What happened is, sometime Saturday afternoon, after discovering that these outlets had stopped working, I looked at the breaker panel and found that the #3 breaker was tripped. When I re-set it, it made a loud pop and I could smell something burnt in the breaker area. I looked behind the panel and saw nothing out of the ordinary. No smoke, nothing burnt etc.

Now, the whole weekend, we had our refrigerator set to electric operation and it worked fine even though it's supposed to be on this same #3 circuit.

So, besides the question of what's going on here, I was wondering if because
the converter is also on this circuit (which I think steps the voltage down to 12 volts) could these two problems be related?
Thanks,
Rich
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Old 04-30-2017, 06:38 PM   #2
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Loud pop is not good. The converter is powered from an outside outlet and really does not do any thing until it has power. Disconnect every thing that maybe on breaker 3 and try to reset it. Is the fridge switched to AC? It will work from just the battery or gas. I would unplug the fridge too it should have an outlet behind the out side door. Your link does not work so I have no ideal how every thing is wired.
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Old 04-30-2017, 08:03 PM   #3
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Mainah,
Thanks for the reply.
I was just doing some checking around and found that our refrigerator must have been running on gas this past weekend because with the battery off and the AC connected, (but gas turned off) it does not light up when the power button is preeed to "on". So, that clears up the mystery of why the refrigerator worked and the outlets on the same circuit didn't.

The link is for the Files section of this site for 2499 wiring diagram. It's labelled 2004, but it seems to apply to 2007 as well.

The converter gets it's power directly from the power cable that plugs into the AC power outlet and everything inside the box is hard wired to that through the breakers.

The only item I can think of that is plugged into an outlet is the refrigerator. I'll unplug it like you said later and try the breaker. I think everything else is hard wired.

I did find mouse droppings and acorn shells under the sofa where the furnace enclosure is, I don't know if they are recent or not, but maybe a wire was chewed through somewhere?

I'm still looking around for that.

Rich
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Old 04-30-2017, 09:55 PM   #4
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Mainah,

This link should take you to the file section where the T2499 wiring diagram is. You then have to download the PDF Sunline Coach Owner's Club - Sunline Owner's Files - Sunline Solaris T-2499 Wiring Diagram
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcrt View Post

The other problem is with the outlets on the number 3 circuit that feeds most of the outlets (all but the galley outlet), the refrigerator and the converter. At least that's what I see on the T-2499 wiring diagram here; http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/do...2499wiring.pdf
I know that several of the outlets on that circuit worked Saturday morning, because I was able to charge my cell phone on the bedroom TV outlet overnight and we made coffee in the electric coffee maker on the entertainment center outlet Saturday morning. What happened is, sometime Saturday afternoon, after discovering that these outlets had stopped working, I looked at the breaker panel and found that the #3 breaker was tripped. When I re-set it, it made a loud pop and I could smell something burnt in the breaker area. I looked behind the panel and saw nothing out of the ordinary. No smoke, nothing burnt etc.

Now, the whole weekend, we had our refrigerator set to electric operation and it worked fine even though it's supposed to be on this same #3 circuit.

So, besides the question of what's going on here, I was wondering if because
the converter is also on this circuit (which I think steps the voltage down to 12 volts) could these two problems be related?
Thanks,
Rich
Hi Rich,

You have 2 issues, lets take the circuit breaker one first.

We are still in discovery mode trying to figure out what went wrong. The pop is not good nor the burnt smell.

The T2499 wiring diagram we have was from my 2004 T2499, I uploaded it a while ago to help the cause.

And yes, no 3 breaker is the general accessory circuit that has the ability to have a lot on it if plugged in.

First, I agree with Mainah, unplug everything on that circuit. The only thing from the factory plugged in, is the fridge in the outside compartment. For the fridge, pull the cover and pull the normal looking 120 VAC plug out on the left side facing the fridge outside. Then power up if you have not already.

That no. 3 circuit feeds every wall outlet in the camper except 2 of them. The galley outlet by the kitchen sink (circuit 4, which has a GFI in it) and the microwave outlet (circuit 5) that the microwave is plugged into. Every other wall outlet is on circuit 3 so make sure you have nothing else plugged in before resetting, including the outside outlet by the rear entry door.

When I stated every wall outlet but 2 of them, that means the whole bedroom, the bathroom and the living room and entertainment center area plus the outside wall outlet by the rear entry door.

The fridge on AC power, are you sure on Saturday it was on electric or gas? Need to confirm this.

What else was plugged in to the 120 VAC wall outlets on Saturday anywhere in the camper? (Including the outside 120 VAC outlet)

The coffee pot depending on what brand wattage is a power load on the no 3 circuit. If there is a label on it, and it says how many watts it is, tell us.

Ideally for a toaster, electric fry pan or other heat making device, if you use the galley plug next to the sink, it has it's own 15 amp breaker and nothing else. The no. 3 circuit has a lot on it. You "might" of just overloaded the no. 3 circuit by accident. The fridge takes approx 325 watts on AC or 2.7 amps when at 120 volts.

The power converter uses 120 VAC on the same no 3 circuit and that load varies pending how much 12 VDC power it is creating. By chance was your battery low and the converter charging it from a low state?

Tell us what else was plugged in so we can see if we can find the more simple reason the breaker tripped out during the afternoon.

Also, when you reset the breaker, did no 3 circuit power back up and work the rest of the weekend? Or is it dead and stayed dead?

Thanks

John
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Old 05-01-2017, 06:10 AM   #6
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Hi John,
Thanks for the help.
Last night, before I read your reply and after my last post to Mainah, I checked around some more. I unplugged the fridge, then plugged the power cord into my garage wall outlet. Then, holding my breath, I flipped the breaker and it stayed! Checked the fridge, lights came on, checked all the outlets on circuit #3, they all worked. Now, the battery was not turned on, but when I went to check the interior lights, none worked. I know they run on 12 volts and they do work with the battery connected, but they should work with shore power only and that, I'm assuming is because the converter is dropping the voltage from 110 to 12v. So, does this mean the problem could be with the power converter?
Oh, one other thing, the GFI in the galley pops out when the test button is pressed, but the bathroom doesn't. I can't push in the test button. Maybe that is defective.

I will check the wattage on the coffee maker when I go out there this morning and re-post.

As for what was plugged in Saturday morning, it was the coffee maker and Barbara's cell phone charger at the entertainment center and my cell phone charger in the bedroom. We believe that was all that was on that circuit that day.

From Saturday afternoon to last night, #3 circuit breaker was off, I didn't want a re-occurrence of the pop and burnt smell!

And the battery charge, I can't say for sure, but it was most probably not low as we had just driven to the campground the night before with it on and I would think it gets charged from the tv battery while in transit.

Rich
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Old 05-01-2017, 07:28 AM   #7
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The converter is on ckt 3. So if the breaker is tripped you'll have no lights unless the battery is up. The 30 amp breaker is a back feed to the load center from the power cord. If a GFI has no power it won't trip or reset. If it powers up some thing (lamp etc.) then the GFI is toes up. It is a"wet" location so it has to have a GFI same with kitchen outlets. From the looks of the diagram your converter is hard wired (no plug) it maybe a good ideal to find out if it works it being on that circuit is suspect it probably has a pair of 30 amp fuses and if it had a DC short it would take them out. Your kind of between a rock and a hard place right now your going to have to try the breaker to figure out what's going on.
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Old 05-01-2017, 07:41 AM   #8
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Hi Rick,

Wrt your electrical problem, I had a similar situation with our 2005 T-280SR and it was the power converter was bad. I ended up replacing the power converter with a Progressive Dynamics PD9260CV. I ended up wiring an outlet to plug the PD9260CV into instead of hard wiring it. So you may want to determine if your power converter is the source of your problem.
I believe if you're plugged into shore power and have the batter turned off via adisconnect switch, the lights should still work being powered from the 12VDC from the converted. JohnB and/or mainah may confirm if this is correct or not.

Wrt heat, on another forum a member had a similar problem and it was due to a family of mice setting up home in one of the head ducts. Since you found mouse droppings around the furnace, you may want to check to make sure all the heat ducts are clear and there's no kinks. If there's blockage in the heat ducks it could cause enough back pressure to lock out the furnace.

Hope this is of some help and good luck.
See you and Barbara in June.
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:07 AM   #9
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Thanks for the replies.
First, John had asked what the wattage on the coffee maker was, I checked and its a Mr Coffee model CG13, 900 watts, 7.5 amps.

Mainah, the bathroom GFI gives power now, but I can't trip it because the test button won't push in. I will replace that.
I see one 30 AMP main breaker in the power center.

Tom, I think you may be right about the converter being bad, I would want to know that for sure before replacing it though. Also, I'd want to know why it stopped working since maybe a new one could be affected by a problem somewhere else. Fortunately it's a few weeks before our next camping trip.
My next step on the furnace will be to check for obstructions and kinks in the ducts and inside the furnace.
Looking forward to Buttonwood!
Thanks,
Rich
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Old 05-01-2017, 06:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcrt View Post

I unplugged the fridge, then plugged the power cord into my garage wall outlet. Then, holding my breath, I flipped the breaker and it stayed!

Checked the fridge, lights came on, checked all the outlets on circuit #3, they all worked.

Now, the battery was not turned on, but when I went to check the interior lights, none worked.

I know they run on 12 volts and they do work with the battery connected, but they should work with shore power only and that, I'm assuming is because the converter is dropping the voltage from 110 to 12v. So, does this mean the problem could be with the power converter?


Oh, one other thing, the GFI in the galley pops out when the test button is pressed, but the bathroom doesn't. I can't push in the test button. Maybe that is defective.

I will check the wattage on the coffee maker when I go out there this morning and re-post.

As for what was plugged in Saturday morning, it was the coffee maker and Barbara's cell phone charger at the entertainment center and my cell phone charger in the bedroom. We believe that was all that was on that circuit that day.

From Saturday afternoon to last night, #3 circuit breaker was off, I didn't want a re-occurrence of the pop and burnt smell!

And the battery charge, I can't say for sure, but it was most probably not low as we had just driven to the campground the night before with it on and I would think it gets charged from the tv battery while in transit.

Rich
Hi Rich,

Something does not fit, yet or I'm miss understanding your response.

Please confirm,

1. Today when you turned the breaker on circuity 3 on, the battery disconnect switch was off? Yes/no?

2. When the breaker came on, it stayed on and all the wall outlets worked. Yes/no?

3. Now here is the big one, You said you checked the fridge and " the lights came on". This may be the inside fridge light or the yellow/orange power on or auto lights on the outside panel, but they where "on"

No 3. means that fridge was fed 12 volts DC from somewhere as all those lights are 12VDC. If the battery was for sure "Off" then this means the power converter is some how working. Please double check and confirm the battery was off as that means the converter has "some" life left in it. If the battery was "on" then the battery can be powering the fridge lights or the converter.

And the statement you made the ceiling lights did work off the battery but now not off the converter is not adding up. They use the same 12 VDC power path through the fuses in the converter and the wiring. Unless something wiggled apart since the last test over the weekend.

At this stage, we do not know if your converter is good or bad but there may be some fuses blown.

I'm also assuming since the coffee pot was not "on" during the afternoon when the circuit breaker tripped, then the cell phone chargers and the fridge electric element are not enough to trip the breaker for over amps. Even if the coffer maker was on, it is still not enough.

Now to why your ceiling lights do not work but the fridge lights did work, assuming the battery was indeed off, then some fuses must be blown in the fuse panel or there is wiring issues. Check all the fuses.

I "believe" Mainah was talking about the 2 green 30 amp "fuses" and not the 30 amp circuit breaker.

At first thought, what you described sounded like a bad power converter but that is not yet ruled in or out. I believe what Mainah was saying, if you pull out the 2, 30amp green fuses and then power up the converter, there is no 12 VDC load on it as those fuses allow power to go to all 12 VDC items. Since you already made the power up work and not trip the breaker, it seems the power converter or the fridge electric element could be suspect. If there was a short in the 12 volts lights wiring, that small fuse should of tripped real quick.

We are still in discovery mode. Confirm the battery off and the fridge lights are working will help.
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Old 05-02-2017, 07:17 AM   #11
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Looking at the wiring diagram I don't think the fridge is connected to the fuse panel in the converter they usually have a hefty fuse and wire the 12 volt fridge heaters draw a lot of current so I'm guessing it may have a direct fused connection to the battery it's pretty hard to see this stuff from Maine but that would explain why the fridge works and the lights don't if the converter is toes up. Do you own a volt meter or test light? Generally the converters have a pair of #8 wires one will be a ground the other 12 volts+ with the battery disconnected and the power on check the voltage between the two heavy wires there should be 12 volts. Here is another thing to ponder some early switching converters would not work if there was no battery connection. See if you can find the converter module number that may help.
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:31 AM   #12
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I got out to the camper this morning and checked as much as I could.

This is a response to John's questions, but Mainah, you may see details needed here as well.
John asked:
1. Today when you turned the breaker on circuity 3 on, the battery disconnect switch was off? Yes/no?
Yes

2. When the breaker came on, it stayed on and all the wall outlets worked. Yes/no?
Yes

3. Now here is the big one, You said you checked the fridge and " the lights came on". This may be the inside fridge light or the yellow/orange power on or auto lights on the outside panel, but they where "on"
No, I thought they came on with AC in my last post, but I may have been mistaken. Today they did not come on with AC only.

I probably was not clear in my last post on some things, so I've put it into a different form based on what I saw today;

AC connected only, (no battery):
Outlets-119v
Interior lights-none work
Outlet for refrigerator-119v
Refrigerator operation-Not working, no lights when turned on.

Battery turned on w/o AC plugged in:
Outlets-Not working
Interior lights-All working
Outlet for refrigerator-Not working, 12v wires have 12.3v
Refrigerator operation-Inside lights come on, Check light comes on then goes off when on/off button pressed to "on".

AC and DC both on:
Outlets-119v
Interior lights-All work
Outlet for refrigerator-119v, 12v wires have 12.3v
Refrigerator operation-Same as when battery only connected.

More notes;
When I plug in the AC cord without the battery turned on, and check 12v wires, I get a low negative number (-.05) which gradually drops to nothing.

Battery charge indicator (when battery connected of course) reads 3 out of 4 lights.

All fuses in converter panel are good (pulled them and visually checked each one).

There are two fuse slots labelled "Protection fuses" that have 40 amp fuses in them. Mainah, I think this is what you referred to when you mentioned 30 amp fuses. I didn't read that as carefully as I should have.

That's what I have at this point, all input is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Rich
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Old 05-02-2017, 11:43 AM   #13
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Rich,

Thanks for clarifying.

This sounds like your converter is not working. You have no 12 volts DC without the battery "on" but you have 119 volts AC at wall outlet when ever plugged into shore power.

Your DC lights and fridge all work when on battery but they do not when on AC shore power. Means all the DC wiring and fuses are good.

This now all points to the actual converter is not working.

Odds are high the pop and burnt smell was your converter die'ing.

What brand converter do you have? I thought the 2007's were on the WFCO's

John
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:26 PM   #14
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Ok that makes sense the fridge needs 12 volts DC. to do anything. It does sound like the charger is toes up but what you need to do now is turn every thing on and check the battery voltage if it is in the low 12 volt range every thing is running off the battery and the charger is not charging the battery or running the lights. Now like I said some chargers need to have battery power to work but if the voltage is static in the low/mid 12 volt range it's not working if it's up into the 13 teens it's working. A fully charged battery is 12.7 volts so in order to charge the voltage has to be 13+ volts. I still need to know what module the charger is I'm working on the fact is is a switching supply charger and not an old transformer type they had a completely different operating system.
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcrt View Post

Battery turned on w/o AC plugged in:
Outlets-Not working
Interior lights-All working
Outlet for refrigerator-Not working, 12v wires have 12.3v
Refrigerator operation-Inside lights come on, Check light comes on then goes off when on/off button pressed to "on".
Rich,

Something Mainah said triggered my mind to this.

You said 12.3 volts on the 12 volts wiring. That sounds like you measured it with a volt meter.

While there may be some meter accuracy shift. 12.3 volts with no real load being drawn, means the battery is between 60 to 70% charged. If it holds this same 12.3 volts right at the battery posts, then that is what the battery is discharged down too.

Like Mainah said, if the converter is working, you should be getting at least 13.2 volts or higher which is the float charge. 13.6 is normal charge and if you have a 3 stage unit, 14. 4 or something in the 14 range pending the brand converter.
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:11 PM   #16
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The converter is a WFCO WF-8955AN w/plastic (?) and the label says OUTPUT: 13.6vdc, 55amp (inc charging and load)

12.3 was the reading on my volt meter this morning when I checked the refrigerator 12v lines. I didn't check right at the battery or with any loads on it. I think I had the fridge off at the time.

I'm inclined to believe that the converter is toast based on what I'm finding and the fact that it made a loud pop and I smelled that burnt odor right at the converter when I re-set the #3 breaker. The big question for me is why was that breaker tripped in the first place? Wouldn't a tripped breaker indicate a problem outside the converter? And if it is, then I better find out what caused it to trip or it may just fry a new converter as well.
Could it be the furnace malfunction?
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:30 AM   #17
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Quote:
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... The big question for me is why was that breaker tripped in the first place? ...
Rich,

The converter draws AC and converts it to DC. The breaker could have tripped because the converter was drawing too much current (amps) due to it's dying.
Resetting the breaker ended up frying the converter (i.e., resulting in the pop and smell), which after that it wasn't drawing any current so the breaker didn't trip again.

The breaker did it's job by tripping to keep the converter from overheating and potentially causing a fire.

That's just my theory on what happened and why I believe the source of your problem is the converter, not outside the converter.

Hutch
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:32 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcrt View Post

I'm inclined to believe that the converter is toast based on what I'm finding and the fact that it made a loud pop and I smelled that burnt odor right at the converter when I re-set the #3 breaker.

The big question for me is why was that breaker tripped in the first place? Wouldn't a tripped breaker indicate a problem outside the converter? And if it is, then I better find out what caused it to trip or it may just fry a new converter as well.
Could it be the furnace malfunction?
Hi Rich,

To the easier question, circuit breaker no. 3, I'm not seeing the converter has anything to do with the furnace. The furnace is a separate issue.

The furnace is totally 12 VDC, no AC at all. There is also a circuit breaker directly on the furnace for DC current. And there is a fuse in the converter panel for the 12 volts current feeding the furnace. Neither where tripped so there is no overload at the furnace.

Short of seeing the actual converter board itself, my thoughts are the converter itself tripped the breaker the first time as it died then. The fault was inside the actual converter. Something on the AC side of the board died most likely. This tripped the breaker the first time.

When you reset the breaker, that power surge literally burnt through the issue that caused it to trip the first time. Now there is an open circuit on the board and this allowed the power to come back up at the wall outlets and not trip the breaker.

When the time comes to have the converter out, you should see or smell something on the board fried.

Also a heads up, when the converter gets changed out, make sure to keep track of the white DC negative wires and the White AC neutral wires and that they never get mixed up. The DC white and the AC white are not common to each other on purpose. The DC is grounded to the trailer frame and the AC neutral wire is isolated from the trailer frame on purpose. If they get mixed up, you will trip any kind of GFI outlet you plug the shore power cord into and the grounding system will no longer be as safe as it normally is. The AC whites are normally solid wire and the DC whites are normally stranded wire but not always so keep track of which goes where.

Hope this helps and let us know how you make out.

John
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:51 AM   #19
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Agreed all around.
John, thanks for the advice on the possible AC and DC mix-up, I'll be careful to reconnect correctly.
I did pull the converter out and sniffed around it. I didn't detect any burnt odor and didn't see anything that looked burnt.

Tom, you had mentioned the converter you bought, I'll look into that. Seems like what I've read about it, it will charge the battery faster. I'm not sure that's really important for our use, but it might be worth the extra $.
Thanks,
Rich
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Old 05-03-2017, 12:35 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by vcrt View Post

Tom, you had mentioned the converter you bought, I'll look into that. Seems like what I've read about it, it will charge the battery faster. I'm not sure that's really important for our use, but it might be worth the extra $.
Thanks,
Rich
Hi Rich,

I also converted to the Progressive Dynamics when my converter died. See here when I did mine in 2008 Power Converter Upgrade

PD now makes several other drops in's. Have to check if they will fit in your WFCO RV and Motorhome Power Converters from Progressive

In our case, I gutted the American Enterprises converter and kept the breaker and fuse panel and just wired the 12 VDC supply to the fuse panel.

Your T2499 floor plan I'm thinking may have room behind the old converter to mount a stand alone PD unit.

The WFCO you had is not a bad converter, it was a 3 stage converter, the drawback I heard was when boondocking with the unit it would not kick into boost unless the battery was really drawn down far. Mr Tweety reported this too I think on their prior T-2753. The PD unit, it will kick into boost when plugged into the generator right off. This is where there is a draw back on the WFCO. I do not know if they corrected this on the new WFCO's or not.

I bought ours from these folks BestConverter - Converters, Inverters, Electrical Supplies, Electronics They handle a lot of brands and the prices at the time was the best I could find and the service was great.

Amazon is now a major player in just about everything. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...mics+converter

Amazon has the WFCO products too.

Good luck

John
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