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Old 04-23-2009, 08:13 PM   #1
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TT axle alignment - Details (long with lot's of pics)

Fellow Sunline Campers

I know some of you may have been following my axle saga, well I have to report, all is good now. If any if you are having tire wearing problems, we might be able to help you check what to look for.

If you ever find your TT tires wearing tires at an accelerated rate, this post might help. It's long, but it ties axle alignment and installation all together. This is geared toward leaf spring suspension but some of the same alignment methods can apply to rubber torsion type axles.

Last fall I started a trouble shooting post and online research looking for anyone out there that has done TT axle alignment and posted about the details of doing it. I found a lot of bits and pieces but nothing that tied the whole thing together for a TT that is. There is a lot out there on semi trailers, just not a lot on TTís in much detail. For those wanting more into the trouble shooting endeavors, see this post complete with a lot of picís Tire Wear Pattern-Tandem Axle TT (Pic's) Where to look next

To keep the typing down Iíll try and do this mostly in picís so you can visualize better what I am talking about. Hopefully others who have done this before may see this post and can comment on easier methods to help others along. Iím not an alignment expert and if someone sees something not quite right, please point it out. I really had to dig to find this info readily available. However what I have now is light years ahead of where I was. And after 200 miles of towing, I still have not worn off the little rubber spikes on OD of my new tires. So I did some good and learned a lot about TT running gear that I never gave a thought to prior.

First Iíll make a few big picture statements.

1. Changing or aligning TT suspension is more then your average spring TT maintenance. This should only be attempted if you have the adequate equipment for the job and extreme caution exercised at all times. Working on machinery is inherently dangerous depending on what and how you are making repairs. What ever you do, it is totally at your own risk from anything you see here in my post. There may be a few tips that can be used to find out if you have a problem, then take your TT to a shop for repair. And then are those who are even more into this then I am. So have at it.

2. The words TT suspension, axle alignment, long lasting and the word ďprecisionĒ are 4 sets of words that do not always go together. The unfortunate part is, with a little more care, following the axle manufacture guidelines, a few upgrades and axle adjusters, precision can be brought into most TT suspension setupsí easily and economically.

Now on with the show. First off my problem, burning up tires. I had one rear tire really grinding itself up in short order. This camper does not have a lot of miles on it. These pictures are of my tires with only approx 4,000 to 5,000 miles on them. How I bumped into this was my tires have aged out and I went looking for the tire size and, WOW these things are shot in less then 1 year from me owning the camper. I have put on about 2500 to 3,000 miles at the point of these pics and the prior owner rarely used the camper for long trips.

For compassion here is my spare tire, never yet used as seen by the little rubber spikes still sticking up. Nice and even in tread width and depth.



Now the best even wear. Left front.


And the worst wear, the left rear. Towing mileage about 4,000 miles did this.


Now the right side. Here the wear flipped. The Front is worse then rear and both have uneven wear.


Iím a firm believer in weighing the TT/TV combo many different ways and this TT is not close to full axle loads or GVWR, yet I have tire wear what I consider extreme wear. Here is a diagram of the basic wear pattern and axle weights.


Since the front left tire was wearing so even I thought that it was in alignment and the rest where off. Actually that front left was just that the front axle was so far off that it put the left front tire into alignment by coincidence.

The biggest problem I had was finding out what true alignment specs are for a TT. Once I found them, then the road to recovery was at least a straighter course. I knew where I had to end up. Here is what I found.

Axle alignment.

Front Axle: For tandem axle TTís, the front axle is to pull true to the tow ball within +- 1/16Ē as measured from the ball to each wheel position. This insures that the front axle is towing straight behind the TV. If it is on an angle, the TT will steer to one side and can create what they call dog tracking going down the road.

Rear Axle: For tandem axle TTís the rear axle is to follow the front axle within +- 1/16Ē of being parallel as measured at the wheel area. This insures that the rear axle is tracking in line with the front axle.

Note I used the wording ďat the wheel areaĒ I have found there is a lot of accumulated error in the components that actually are in the suspension. I my case, most times I used the machined surface of the brake drum as a datum point. Goal is to get that running surface in alignment.

See this sketch.


Also see here for a Dexter link See page 19 of the down loadable Product Applications Manual.

Wheel Toe: Here different sources stated different things on what right is.

(source, Dexter tech service)
For Torflex axles: 0.00 degrees toe out to 0.31 degrees toe in
For leaf spring axles: 0.25 degrees toe out to 0.25 degrees toe in

(Source, Alko tech service)
For a loaded axle: 0.00 to 0.5 deg toe in.

(Source, trailer alignment shop)
For a loaded 5,200# axle toe angle: +- 1/32Ē

Axle camber Here different sources stated different things on what right is.

(source, Dexter tech service)
For 60 ksi tube axles: Unloaded axle measurements
For a 3,500# axle D35: 0.50 deg nominal. Min. 0.37 to Max 0.63 deg.
For a 4,400, 5,200, 6,000, 7000 and 7,200# axle: 0.90 deg nominal. Min 0.67 to Max 1.13 deg.

(Source, Alko tech service)
For a loaded 5,200# axle: 0.00 to 1 /2 degree. There should be no negative camber.

(Source, trailer alignment shop)
For a loaded 5,200# axle camber angle: 0.00 to 1.0 degrees.

So those where the specís I could round up. Now what I had. See here:


This is a text book case of just how messed up an alignment could get. Well almost, my camber was still at least positive and in range. However the axle alignment was way off and the toe was way out of range and in a heavy tow out condition. What caused this? From everything I can tell this much I know. The hangers on my frame are not true to the tow ball and they are not square to each other. Next the axle tubes themselves had the stub ends welded in wrong as there is no bend in the axle tube and the toe out is exactly equal on both ends. This all combined with large tolerance mounting methods used in TT manufacture sort of added up to the perfect storm to burn up tires by a high scrub angle with the road.

So now the recovery process. First was to rebuild the worn plastic nylon spring bushings and put in bronze bushings with grease fittings. This also included a heavy duty shackle upgrade and a Dexter EZ flex equalizer. See this post of mine of picture details on EZ flex post. Dexter EZ Flex Equalizer Upgrade With Many Pic's

Here is the outcome of the bushing rebuild


Now that I had good tight bushings, I rechecked the axle alignment. Now it is even worse then before. The bushing play actually helped trick me as it slightly twisting the axles into better alignment then in a static state. Now I say better, but it was still out in left field and way out of spec. I was now able to confirm the original install was wrong starting with the hanger fit up and it escalated from there. So now what?

I started calling a few dealers if they aligned axles. The ones I called only changed them under warranty with new ones from the factory. So I called the factory. They only sell new axles and do not bend to align them. They did give me the name of the local axle distributor a few miles down the road who would sell me new axles. So I called them. Axle Inc in Elkhart IN. So after about 10 minutes I had 2 new 6,000# axle tubes on order that UPS would delver to my house. I had all my axle measurements already so I was good to go. After seeing the heavy toe out condition and the alignment issue, I really did not want a shop bending my original ones trying to fix all that problem. Axle tubes do not cost that much. I upgraded from 5,200# to 6,000# axles for only a little over $100 each plus freight. And I upgraded to the zerk greaseable axle ends for about $15 more an axle. Yes I needed to do the work, but for me, that is not a problem.

So here is the correction process.

Here is how the 2 new axles came to my house.


You can see here the grease hole that comes up just behind the inner bearing.


I also checked the unloaded axle camber before I got to far along. Used a 36Ē straight edge on center of the axle and measured the depth of the bend. Then used right angle trig to determine the axle camber angle.


Next comes jacking up the TT. Here caution needs to be exercised and you need heavy enough equipment. In my case I have 4, 6 ton jack stands holding up the 7,700# axle area of my camper. I use the larger jack stands for stability more then weight rating.


Tires off, TT on stands


I also use 4 bottle jacks under each axle seat area to keep the shackles from flopping down on me while Iím working on the axles. And I will need them for the alignment process later. I am not really lifting in this area, just supporting the roughly 100# of axle weight.


Next is to get the axles off the TT meaning dealing with rusted U bolts. Some just cut off the old, in my case I dressed up the threads a weekend or so before hand so on axle changing day I did not have to deal with frozen on U bolts. Start with lots of penetrating oil, soaking over night and then again fresh the next day. I also used a chaser die to clean up the threads first.


And a deep socket to run the die up with.


Now the threads are in usable condition. So out comes the breaker bar to break them loose. Oh, the kneeling pad helps the knees on my concreteÖ.. Iím not as young as I use to be.


Now that I was past the U bolt issues, I leave one snugged up to hold everything in place as I take off the drums and back plate. You can drop the spring pivot bolts and take spring, axle and all out, but in my case it was easer for me to lift the tubes apart from the drums etc. And I did not want to be over working the new serrations of the spring bolts in the hangers I just installed a few weeks earlier by pressing them in the spring bolts again. So off with the axle nut.


Then the brake drum


And here is why you need to check your brakes often. A blown grease seal even on standard hand packed bearings. Since I bought this TT used, this is the 1st time I have had the drums off on all 4 wheels. Always use new seals when putting the drum on, they are cheap compared to this mess. The seal was nicked.


Now all that is left is the axle tube. Not that heavy.


And now no axle


And no axles at all.




The old next to the new


I check the toe on each axle before installing. Here is the setup. I put just the brake drum on each end of the new axle and place a 18Ē scale on the drum machined surface.


The use a tape measure and check each end.


Rear


Front


As you can see, on this axle there is a total of 1/32Ē toe in as measure at 9Ē from center. Doing some math that comes out to 0.10 degrees toe in. The other axle was 0.00 deg toe in. So Iím good to go.

Next I made axle adjusters so I can dial the final alignment dead on. This was an evolution as I made them for my 5,200# axles thinking I would reuse them. They started like this.












However my 6,000# axles, the axle seat was made different. So I had to change the approach. This is what I ended up with.















That last step was very important that the adjuster is dead flat against the axle seat. Slot the axle seat for the adjusting pin as needed so there is no air space between the axle seat and adjuster when you tighten up the U bolts. If not the spring pack will not be properly compressed.

Now to the next post. The assembly.
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:16 PM   #2
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The assembly and alignment process.

Since I have the axle adusters on only one side of the TT, I needed to do a test drive and a final location check for the non adjusting side before I welded the non adjusting pad to the axle seat.

Here is one axle on the adjuster side.


And one on the non adjusting side


Now to set up the front axle alignment rig. I start with an extra tow ball and nut with a scribed line in the center of it hanging plumb in the ball coupler.


Both directions.


Then I put just the drums on the axles so I can use them to align from. And I tape a tape measure to the wheel stud and level the bolt pattern on both sides.


Then the suspension needs to be parallel to the frame as a place to start to align from. I use the bottle jacks to create parallel. This dimension is slightly more then loaded axle height and the same at each wheel. So the springs are near the normal running height.


Then check that the axles are centered on the frame.


Find a helper person and start aligning the front axle exactly dead on.


Your buddy can dial in the adjustment as you read each tape at the tow ball


Snug up the U bolts on the front and now set the rear axle parallel to the front. Here I used a 36 scale and 2 square heads that works perfect on a 6 bolt hub. It is used as a gage so both sides are again exactly the same.




Once you have tweaked both axles, I tach weld the non adjusting sides. And pulled the axle back out to finish welding.

Now the permanent install. Aligning now is even quicker the 2nd time. Need 2 axles.


The non adjust side shim plate welded in place.


New brake plates added and torqued.




Bearings repacked by hand and new seal installed.


And a quick repeat on the aligning process. Make sure the axles are centered


Axles parallel to the frame check


Align the front axle to the tow ball as before and torque the U bolt in a X pattern criss cross pattern.


Use those nice working adjusters to dial in the rear axle and torque those U bolts. By the way, I consider the axles to be aligned to within 1/32Ē to max 1/16Ē. Which most is the play in the bronze spring bushings.



Wire up the brakes and put the tires on. I also did the independent feed upgrade to all 4 wheels using no 10 ga. wire. Here is a quick pic of that.


Add 4 new Denman ST radial tires and do a running toe check. Here you drive the rig about 100 feet straight and check across the tires for toe. Find a high spot on the tire tread and place a tape measure on that spot and tape it in place. You do this at the 9:00 and 3:00 location on the tire.


Then pull the tape across the TT


And pull it tight and read the number at the same high/wide spot on the tread on the opposite wheel. Do front and rear of each tire on each axle.


Here my numbers are 1/16 toe in at the wheel OD and 1/8Ēí toe in at the wheel OD. A lot better then the 7/16Ē toe out I had before.

And you can do a loaded axle camber check. I use a 36Ē scale center on the middle of the axle with the camper loaded and then depth check to the center of the axle.



Compare to the unloaded numbers and you can see the axle flexing down. On mine axle loads against a 6,000# axle the front axle compresses 0.055Ē and the rear 0.039Ē I have positive camber on both with room to spare.

So life is now good on the axle and tire front. Have towed now 2 camping trips with just over 200 miles. I see no tire wear. The little rubber spikes are still intact which was shocking actually. As a point of reference, over the winter I put my unused spare on that left rear worst tire wearing location. I burnt off 0.100Ē in less then 800 miles over the winter. Not good.

So now it time to go camping. YEH


Hope this helps someone.

John

PS. If you have read this far..... there is no reason you cannot check your own TT suspension alignment. You do not even have to lift the TT off the ground. Need a good tape measure and let me knw what else you have in your tool box and we will fix you up with the know how.
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Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:41 PM   #3
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Very nice John. I'm interested to know if you've seen any significant changes in your gas mileage now.

Are those new chrome Versa-Lok hub covers I see?

Jon
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Old 04-24-2009, 10:01 AM   #4
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Nice work, John! Glad to hear it all worked out for you.

I also like that independant feed upgrade on the brakes. I just might have to steal that one.

- Frank
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Old 04-25-2009, 06:53 AM   #5
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Hey John!

I've been following your tires/axle saga...and anticipating this this post from you...thank you! Wow, that is definetly not a "normal" do it yourselfer" project. Looks like a huge project that took alot of time and planning. The pics are great! Thats one project/fix I dont think I would ever try!

Quote:
Wire up the brakes and put the tires on. I also did the independent feed upgrade to all 4 wheels using no 10 ga. wire. Here is a quick pic of that.
What is this all about? I understand how the brakes work and all but I'm lost on the independent feed?
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Old 04-25-2009, 12:11 PM   #6
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Hi Folks

First off, thanks for all the kinds words. Now to catch up on some of the questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunline Fan
Very nice John. I'm interested to know if you've seen any significant changes in your gas mileage now.

Are those new chrome Versa-Lok hub covers I see?

Jon
Jon

Gas Mileage, Donít know yet. We have camped now twice with the axles fixes. The 1st short trip was not long enough to know. Last weekend was 160 miles and things where good until we hit a dead stop on the highway for an accident that closed the highway down. So there we sat for 50 minutes. Shut the engage off when I could but still stop and go. Then on the way back I was bucking a 30MPH wind. So I canít yet tell if Iím any better or not.

The hub caps. Boy, you have a good eye.

I have converted all 4 wheels to these.


Prior had these. The separate center hub cover with the lug nut caps.


What pushed me to switch is pure cost. Those black center hub covers cost like ~ $15 each. I already bought one for the T2499 until I figuired out how to mount them and 2 already prior on the T310SR. And I had to buy some of the black lug nut caps too, for like ~ $0.80 each as they crack every now and then. On the T310 the prior owner or shop was not care full on how they lined up the 3 whimpy fingers on the back of the center cap. If you install them out of phase the rim creases the tabs hard and soon they break off. Almost all 4 where creased on the T310 and prior to the axle rebuild I already replaced 2 of them. Then in the rebuild saga the other 2 where flexing to the point of breaking. So now yet another $30Ö

So I started looking around for the 1 piece hub covers. Found them in chrome for like $5 each. So I bought 5 of them. (1 a spare). So Iím $25 into this now with the new type. For some odd reason black one piece hub caps are like $15Ö. Must not be as popular

So I will try them and see if they hold up any better. The only part I do not like about them is getting them off in cold weather to check lug nut torque or change a flat. I have not gone thru cold weather with them yet, but the flexing that goes on getting one off, Iím sure they could be problems cracking on the way they snap over the lug nuts.

Iíll report back in a year or so how these do. I did 303 spray them to help with the sun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank
Nice work, John! Glad to hear it all worked out for you.

I also like that independant feed upgrade on the brakes. I just might have to steal that one.

- Frank
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsms264
Hey John!

Quote:
Wire up the brakes and put the tires on. I also did the independent feed upgrade to all 4 wheels using no 10 ga. wire. Here is a quick pic of that.
What is this all about? I understand how the brakes work and all but I'm lost on the independent feed?

Thanks for the nice comments guys. Once I could get the axle specs with tolerances, I knew where I had to get to.

The brakes wiring, there may be some more interest on just this topic. Iíll put a separate post together on it as I have more pics on just it. That and Dexter Self Adjusting brakes. For a quick answer, the way the wires go thru the axle tubes has issues over time. The wire insulation gets brittle and cracks and shorts come. I found this brittleness on mine but no shorts yet. The heavier wire helps with voltage drops and the independent feed helps with not taking 2 brakes out at once. In my case I had a choice since I had to hook everything back up. Do it the old way or upgrade and make it last longer. I chose the upgrade.

Stay tuned to the modifications section. Maybe yet this weekend.

John
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:27 PM   #7
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Fellow Sunliners

As I mentioned earlier this year I would be reporting back on tire wear. So here is the report.

This is a 2,500 miles thread depth wear check. I used a set of dial calipers to take the measurements. Rechecked each number 3 times as I was measuring a piece of rubberÖ I will admit there can be some small amount of error in these numbers. Less then 0.005Ē.





I checked the depth at each tread and I used the new spare tire as a base line.


Then I measured each tire. This pic is only of the front left tire.


I put the info in a spread sheet so I can compare it. All tires inflated to max cold side wall pressure while towing and this wear check.


A few things learned.

1. The new spare is higher on the outside treads then the center. Not a lot but I picked it up. It is so dead on that it must be what comes out of the tire molds that way.

2. A trend is that the centers of all 4 tires are wearing more then the outside by a slight amount. This I do believe is from the loading of the tire. Higher pressure then needed can wear a tire center. Iím running 65 psi the max cold tire pressure. The max is for a tire load of 2,540 lb. Iím only in the 2,007 lb loading range if all 4 ties are evenly loaded. So technically I have more air then needed for the load which may explain this very small wear pattern.

OR it is that the center was lower to start with and the tread wore even and it is just following where it started and has nothign to do with the more pressure verses load.

Due to tire heat and anti sway prevention, I will leave the tires at max pressure. It was just interesting I could pick up this wear pattern.

3. The tires are wearing well from waht I can see. There are no large burning up wear patterns like I had before. So my alignment process appears to be sound.

4. The tires are wearing at an approx 0.015Ē per 2500 miles. If that rate continues per mile, that comes out to about 43,250 miles to wear down to a 1/16Ē of tread left. I have heard that if you get 20K miles on a trailer tire before replacement, your doing good. I donít know if that is a good statement or not. Iíll let you know in 5 years from now when they age out or wear out first.

5. I will repeat this test again at the end of the year. That will add about another 2,000 miles to the data set and see if the wear patterns continue as well as they are now.

So far I am very satisfied with the tire wear. I have not found anyone who has looked this close before to compare this info against. The best I can do is how many miles they went before they wore out a set. And even then, the tire make plays a roles in this too.

Thanks for following along

John
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:00 AM   #8
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Wow, what a great post. They should be using your posts in the mechanical schools if that's the correct terminology. John the time and effort you took to document this is much appreciated. Now that three years have gone buy it would be interesting to know what the numbers are now. Surely I'm not asking you to run out and measure it all for me. I don't know if tires need to be changed around on trailers like they do on cars. I suspect that may not be the case. Oddly enough I've read about people balancing. their tires but not rotating them. But, nevertheless it would be interesting to know what the numbers were if you have the tires off for the next bearing service. Again John , thank-you very much.

Richard Murphy.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:34 PM   #9
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Hi Richard,

Thanks for the good words. As you can see we all have our hobbies....

These kind of things are what I like to do. I have checked tire wear since I last posted just have not posted it. I'm due for another check soon and will post and update.

I do have turning wear. The tire scrub of a turning tandem axle trailer is just going to be there. And it may be accelerated from our style of camping. We do a lot of short trips verses lot of long days across the USA and Canada. Some day that trend will change but it will be at least 2 years from now.

I'll be back in the near future with a tread wear update.

Thanks

John
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