Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
Sunline RV Forum
Sunline User Photos

Go Back   Sunline Coach Owner's Club > Technical Forums > Repairs and Maintenance
Click Here to Login

Join Sunline Club Forums Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-23-2012, 10:26 PM   #21
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,654
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
Sunline 1,

OK that is what I thought, being 20F outside, running the furnace and then you went into auto switch over.

I see 2 things that may add together to create what you saw OR it is all the fact that it was cold out and running the highest LP gas appliance we have, the furnace on an almost empty tank.

Since this may be the 1st time this tank has been filled by the gallon or pound you may have noticed there is some variation in how full the tank can be filled. In the new style tanks there is an overfill device. It is a float valve that prevents the tank from being overfill beyond 80% total fill. The float valve is part of the stem that screws down into the tank below the shut off knob. If they are filling and not using the bleeder, and if the float shuts off early it cannot take any more. To prove this out, next time weigh the tank before going to get it filled and if the weight equals the tare weight then compare to after being filled.

Looks like these:
Propane OPD - Overfill Prevention Device Cylinder Valves

Those valves are screwed into a NPT taper thread in the top of the tank and they is a slight variation on where they tighten up. If screwed in 1/16" deeper it will be less fill and 1/16" less will be more fill. On a cylinder of that diameter it may end being 1# of propane. That is not all of the 5 # but "might" be a part of it.

The bigger issue could be the reduced gas vaporization effect of being cold out, the tank being close to empty lowering the wettable area for creating vapor and the furnace running pulling a high demand for gas vapor. The change over regulator senses low pressure to do the switch. If the demand for gas vapor is larger than the tank can create, the pressure drops from the furnace running as there is not enough vapor volume being generated to keep the pressure up. This creates a momentary low pressure, low enough to trip the regulator to switch the regulator.

And actually if you left the tank alone, if there is LP gas left it would continue to boil and raise the pressure back up, just it takes longer. But it's too late as the regulator already switched. During times of the year where the outside temps are higher, this problem is not seen and you coast right through this until there is no LP left.

See this chart on the lower right. It shows the vapor pressure in the tank per degrees temperature outside the tank.
http://www.winnebagoind.com/resource...20LP%20Gas.pdf

At 20F there is 40.8 psi in the tank where as at 50F for example there is 77.1 psi. I believe the switch over may happen around 8 psi. I cannot find the spec on the Marshall Brass one but found it on another brand. Since we have a small diameter tank, there "might" not be enough of the LP surface area exposed for the needed vaporization to occur at the low temps outside.

And here is one of the easier to understand writeups on how vaporization takes place. Now granted this site is talking about vaporizers for different applications but it explains the tank size, temperature, wettable area and how vaporization works.
Algas SDI: World Class Liquid Vaporizers & Gas Mixing Solutions

Here is a good example of the LP boiling effect that goes on to create this pressure to stop the boiling.
http://www.propanesafety.com/uploade...r%20Demand.pdf

And here is another article on LP systems in cold weather.
http://www.documentation.emersonproc...500147t012.pdf

If you look at a home that uses LP gas, the tank is real long and larger in diameter. Yes this is to create more volume to last longer but they created more wetted surface area to create more vapor with the long larger horizontal tank. They solved the volume problem by creating a large enough wetted surface for cold temperatures.

Since you now are filling the tank by the gallon or pound, you are not overpaying for 5 left over pounds like the flat rate places do. You are only paying for what was used. I have a local garden center that sells it by the pound and they weigh fill it and check full with the bleeder valve.

I have not yet tracked down the BTU generation of 30# cylinder at 20 F yet. I can find a 150 gallon tank, just no the 30#'er. The furnace can be pulling 30,000 BTU's and when the tank gets close to empty and the diameter of the dome on the bottom of the tanks gets smaller, the wettable area is smaller and may not be enough to generate enough vapor to feed the furnace.

This may be your explanation or may not be, but it at least adds up to what "might" be.

Hope this helps

John
__________________

__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2012, 07:20 AM   #22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 275
SUN #19
Sunline1
John

Thanks for all the info. Didn't have a chance to completly disgest all the links yet. Will give them a "more complete" going over, the second time i look them over.

I guess it boils down to the fact, it was cold (20's), the pressure in the (service) tank was lower due to cooler outside temp. The furnace was the only thing that would have been runnig when the tanks switched. Therefore the switch occured somewhat early, leaving some propane still in the tank. I think that's basically what you said. All makes sense to me.

Also about the possibility of the valve orfice turned in incorrectly.

I wonder, had I left the first (service) tank on the camper. and say we got a warmer "Day" high 40's, then if I had switched the leaver back to the first tank if somemore of the propane would have the been of use ? Been the temperture was up and hopefully the pressure in the tank would be up some as well ?

Thanks again for all your help and Happy Hoilidays !!!
__________________

__________________
Sunline1

2002 Sunline model T-2975 (large Bath)
Sunline1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2012, 07:49 AM   #23
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,654
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunline1 View Post
John

I guess it boils down to the fact, it was cold (20's), the pressure in the (service) tank was lower due to cooler outside temp. The furnace was the only thing that would have been runnig when the tanks switched. Therefore the switch occured somewhat early, leaving some propane still in the tank. I think that's basically what you said. All makes sense to me.

Also about the possibility of the valve orfice turned in incorrectly.
Yes, you summed it up correct, the rest of the post was more of how I came to that conclusion.

OK I may have missed something, what is the valve orfice turned incorrectly you are referring to? Did you mean you had forgot to flip the lever on the change over regulator to the new main service tank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunline1 View Post

I wonder, had I left the first (service) tank on the camper. and say we got a warmer "Day" high 40's, then if I had switched the leaver back to the first tank if somemore of the propane would have the been of use ? Been the temperture was up and hopefully the pressure in the tank would be up some as well ?

Thanks again for all your help and Happy Hoilidays !!!
Yes, if there was still LP in the first tank it will continue to boil even if it is 20F out creating vapor. It only stops boiling down around -45F below zero. And at 40F as compared to 20F it may have been able to generate enough to keep the furnace running. It is not that 20F is too cold, it is that 20F and the tank being to close to empty that reduced the "rate" of vapor generation. If you where using the stove inside or the fridge it may have kept up right on running until the tank was empty as the demand of the appliance is less than the rate of generation.

The next time I pull a tank, especially the little 5 lber I am going to weigh it to see that, yes I did get down to tare weight. On my outside stove the burner just plain goes out. In this case there should be almost nothing left. The "feel" of slosh sometimes is different and I never had time to drill down into "why". Like I said, now I'm armed with enough back ground to maybe figure out what is different. The slosh may only be 1/2 a pound of LP. These are concave tank bottoms verses convex domes on the camper 30#'ers. Next time I will make sure I do not buy convex bottom tanks.

Thanks

John
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2012, 08:21 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 275
SUN #19
Sunline1
John

I was referring to the "Float Valve" being turned in too far or not enough as you referenced in your first response. I referred to the orfice incorrect on my part.

This stuff is pretty interesting to me as well, I'm a pretty curious guy. i will probaly weigh my "Empty" tanks before taking them to be fill in the future just out of curiosity.
__________________
Sunline1

2002 Sunline model T-2975 (large Bath)
Sunline1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2012, 09:28 AM   #25
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,654
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunline1 View Post

This stuff is pretty interesting to me as well, I'm a pretty curious guy. i will probaly weigh my "Empty" tanks before taking them to be fill in the future just out of curiosity.
You too.... Once I understand it, I can leave it alone. Until then, well curiosity gets the best of me some times. The learning never stops. Until your post, I never dug deep enough to better understand the LP boiling process.
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2012, 11:24 AM   #26
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,357
SUN #2097
mainah is an unknown quantity at this point
I think what you feel in the tank is actually the float. I wonder if you are using the camper stationary if it would be cheaper for you to call a gas co. and have them bring a 150# tank and just come and fill it as needed? The RV heaters are real propane hogs. I work part time at a camp ground and we fill tanks the big ones we often weight or fill by the gallon. We open the fill valve and when it spits liquid we shut it off and I'm sure if we tried hard we might get another 1/2# or so in.
__________________
mainah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2012, 12:03 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 275
SUN #19
Sunline1
A larger tank might be a good idea. Although my last 30lb lasted
about 2 wks.. I generaly spend 1-3 hrs out there (70) then turn it down to (50).
Where my camper is parked. It doesn't get any shade at all. Bad for the finish good for heating.
In fact I turned the furnace off at 9am today (25 degrees outside) its now 220 pm and 32 degree on my back porch. I have an indoor outdoor thermometer (transmitter) in my camper its 49 degrees in the camper with no heat on.The sun is shinning So when the sun is shinning it doesn't take a lot to heat it.
__________________
Sunline1

2002 Sunline model T-2975 (large Bath)
Sunline1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2012, 04:16 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,357
SUN #2097
mainah is an unknown quantity at this point
I don't know you may ask two weeks on 30 # seems like more then I would like to pay. I heat one bay in my garage just long enough to fix what ever I might break and can get by with 30 # for the winter with a 40,000 btu furnace but again it does have 6" of insulation.
__________________
mainah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 12:07 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 275
SUN #19
Sunline1
mainah

I'm with ya on the 6 in of insulation wow.

I was alittle mixed up on the 2wks for a tank. It was 2 wks for a 1/2 tank. I really can't remember if I had the furnace on "full time" for all of the 2 wks.

I checked the propane alittle more than 2wks ago. I had 1 empty (red indicator), and about a half tank on the other one. I use the pour hot water down the side and then feel where the tank gets cold deal.
That's when I got the tank filled and was charged for 30 lbs of propane.

I will keep better records in the future, just because being retired I have a lot of time on my hands, to keep track of otherwise meaningless info. All though somewhat intersting to me. If nothing else it keeps me thinking.
__________________

__________________
Sunline1

2002 Sunline model T-2975 (large Bath)
Sunline1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do I need a water regulator? noralee Repairs and Maintenance 14 11-26-2012 07:00 PM
Potable Water Regulator dtstanton Repairs and Maintenance 2 09-18-2012 05:50 PM
LP Auto Change Over Regulator Explained JohnB Repairs and Maintenance 6 05-13-2012 07:32 PM
Bad LP Regulator??? HappyCampers Sunline Community 5 10-12-2009 05:40 PM
LP Regulator chuck & lori Repairs and Maintenance 3 04-02-2008 10:30 PM


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Sunline RV or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:41 AM.


×