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Old 05-12-2017, 08:52 PM   #1
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Moisture Meters For Inspecting a Camper

Hi Everyone,

I wanted to share some findings I have on moisture meters that applies to checking a camper for water intrusion. A fellow forum member, Jim44646 turned me onto the moisture meters a while ago, but in the pin type of meters. I never knew they existed until then. So I bought a pin type and a pinless type. These are not the super high end meters that cost hundreds of dollars, more in the $40 or less range.

This post will be mainly on the pinless General Tools meter. This one, model MMD7NP https://www.generaltools.com/digital...or-bar-graph-1

Many places sell them, here they are on Amazon. This one on Amazon for $40, https://www.amazon.com/General-Tools...re+meter&psc=1

My pin meter is on the left and the pinless on the right


These moisture meters are made for many things in industry. Mine has modes for hard wood, soft wood, concrete and wall board. The wall board mode seemed to fit the camper the best. Many of the meters on the market read out in percent wetness of the item you are inspecting.

This meter reads out in 0 to 100% of scale when in the "wallboard" mode. But it does not correlate to percent moisture in wood, it is more a level of wetness that the sensor can see. It has it's limitations, but understanding how it works and where it can get tricked, still leaves it as a very good tool for inspecting a camper for water intrusion.

I did some testing on the meter to get a feel for what some of the numbers meant looking through a camper wall.

The insides of the most of the Sunline campers are made of 1/8" laun plywood for the most part. Their is a vinyl or other wall paper on it, but it is still only 1/8" thick. Other then the Que or older Advancer's which have foam board insulation, the campers have batt type insulation behind the 1/8" luan, in the walls, and ceiling. The floor below is a thicker OSB floor with insulation under it, I think they are 1/2 maybe 5/8" but that may have changed over the years.

I did some tests on known wetness through something representative. I set the meter to "Wallboard" and it has a 3/4" range of measuring wetness. Meaning it can see some level of wetness, 3/4" into the wall.

The palm of my hand, has 100% that it is seeing through my skin.


Next was something more in the camper. I found a piece of 1/8" luan in the camper bathroom I can put my hand behind. I took a wet paper towel folded it up and put it behind the 1/8" luan. You can see the paper here


Then put the meter over the luan board. For that paper towel, I get 56%


Next was to try that same wet paper towel a little more deeper in a thicker wall. I have a 1" wall in the bath room. It is made up of 1/8" luan, 3/4" framing and then another 1/8" wall board.

The wall


The wall with nothing behind it, 0%


Then scanning up at 0% I move across metal. A towel rod holder on the other side. The metal tricked the meter. But realizing how it works, it was 0% under the metal, 16% on the metal for about 2" of scanning travel, then back to 0% once past it. Again this is at 1" into the wall. It may read metal higher at closer distances.


The reading


Camper walls or ceiling may have staples, wiring or other metals in them, but they are only in small areas. Not a large area like many square inches. So we need to keep in mind that not everything we see means it is wet in area we are inspecting. A wet wall however is wet in a pattern most times and is the bigger then a blip in the meter. When batt insulation gets wet, it is like a big wet terry towel that will not dry out. You will see a larger area or wet, not a blip on the meter.

Then to the wet paper towel. You can see the wet towel stuck to the wall and the meter looking at it




That was reading 13%, 1" away from the sensor that only has a range of 3/4".


I changed the wet towel to a very wet wash cloth and the numbers went higher then the 13%, again at 1" away. The wash cloth being denser and more water in it, pushed meter to higher numbers at 1" away. On the 1/8" luan at the sink where I started, the wash cloth went to 90%. So the amount of wet does affect the numbers and the distance. But again, wet insulation above an 1/8" thick ceiling is worse then a wet wash cloth and your going to find it.

I can see through a plastic shower stall which I did not think I could and it will see through the black waterproof membrane on the bottom of the camper. If the roof does not have algae slime on it, I can see through rubber and the corrugate sheet bud broad which is less then 1/8".

I had another member test her roof with this type of meter and it scanned higher numbers in the back corner on the roof then went to zero about a 2 foot radius away. This roof did not have a slime buildup of algae. My own roof on my T310SR that I know is dry, reads 0%. However a T1950 project camper I have that has this slime build up on the roof, reads 100% everywhere which does not fit the normal pattern. I'll report back when I open up the roof if the slime is causing the issue or I have 100% wet roof.

Here are a few pics of the meter in action.

A shower stall that is in a known wet camper, the T1950


Top area


About 8" down


About 1 1/2 feet down


The ceiling in the corner of the shower


The back wall area in the same wet camper.

The ceiling above the bed in a T1950. 86%


The rear wall half way down at the bottom of the window


The bottom of the back wall by the bed


The door side wall near the rear corner


And under the camper at the back wall area looking through the black waterproof membrane


These meters used with the some knowledge of how the camper is built and understanding the limitations of the meters can be a helpful tool in finding water infected areas in a camper.

Hope this helps someone looking to buy a new camper or to fix one they have.

If other members have moisture meter results that they have found, please add to this post. The more we learn about how to inspect a camper for water damage, the better.

Thanks

John

PS. For those finding this moisture meter post, see this post for additional information on seeing the General Tools pin-less moisture meter, model MMD7NP in action inspecting a camper that did not have the rubber roof maintained like it should have. There are a lot of pictures of how the camper was water infected and using the meter to show you how you can see from the inside into the wall, ceiling and floor cavities and from the roof and bottom of the camper looking in. 2004 T1950 Restoration Project - (Ugly Picture Heavy)
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Old 05-13-2017, 08:47 AM   #2
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John,
Great info and I have been wondering if these meters are accurate to help evaluate a purchase. Without being able to investigate higher readings they seem like hit or miss, but your hints about metal sensitivity make sense. The fact that you've confirmed with known wet and dry walls is fantastic. Since I'm looking for a T-1950 it's a bit of a mixed blessing though and you have me a but worried too . From the pics it's hard to visually see there is any water damage from the outside. Did you visually see the damage on your 1950? Are there known areas for water intrusion in specific locations on the 1950's or did your unit have a major issue like a broken window or skylight that caused the water damage in the first place? Thanks again for the info- Mark
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:26 PM   #3
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Thanks for taking the time to give a very good overview of this very important tool. On your recommendation John, I bought the pinless type when we were looking for our current camper and I continue to use it to monitor areas that we did have some problems with. This was around the entry door which is located near the back of the trailer on a 2499.

Why did we buy it if it had some evidence of moisture? Because every single Sunline we'd looked at before had a mildew odor and we didn't even need to use the meter, our noses told us to smile and say "no thank you". Water damage from leaks, usually in the roof seals is very common.

I used the higher moisture finding at the right rear corner floor to negotiate a price reduction and then pulled off the lower siding panels at the back end to find the problem. Water had come in from a window near the back that had a slightly dented frame (didn't even see it when we were considering the purchase) and pooled at the lowest point. Replacing some wood and insulation took care of it and we are very happy with our purchase.

I had been using the softwood setting to check and when I read here that you use the wall setting, I went out to try it. It seems to give a lower percentage on wall then on softwood, sometimes half as much, but I think the most important thing is that by checking known dry areas and getting an idea of how much of a percentage reading you might get (say, during a rainy stretch of days), you can then see the comparative difference when coming to a damp area.

Rich
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Old 05-14-2017, 11:13 AM   #4
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Hi Mark,

I'll answer some of your questions here and I need to create a separate reply for a better answer on what to look for. Your questions are "perfect" for someone contemplating on how to inspect a camper of water damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcj7247 View Post
Great info and I have been wondering if these meters are accurate to help evaluate a purchase. Without being able to investigate higher readings they seem like hit or miss, but your hints about metal sensitivity make sense.
The moisture meter is a "tool" as "part" of the camper inspection. It is not fool proof and it should not be your only source to determine if you have a wet camper. But it can really help. When you have a real "wet" camper, it will find it if you are looking in the right places. More on the right places in the next reply/post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcj7247 View Post
The fact that you've confirmed with known wet and dry walls is fantastic. Since I'm looking for a T-1950 it's a bit of a mixed blessing though and you have me a but worried too .
The T-1950 is really no different then any of the other campers. It can be a dry one and a really wet one just the same as any other model. Water infection is not specific to the floor plan. It comes from many sources, some of which are:
  • The prior owner did not know they had to or how to, care for the camper roof.
  • The prior owner did not know where to look for water infections as they never thought to.
  • Time got away on the prior owner and they missed doing some routine repairs and inspections.
  • An act of nature occurred and something ate into the camper (a rodent) or fell on it.
  • A pipe fitting or tank cracked from freezing or just plain broke inside creating a water leak from the inside out. This includes any internal plumbing leak.
  • An entry door, cargo storage door, a window, roof hatch, shower dome, DOT marker lights, basically any penetration in the camper outer skin
    has a gasket or sealant failure, crack or other method to leak allowing water to get in.
  • A camper had a manufacturing defect from the day it was made or the design of the system used in RV's was not the greatest at the time it was made. Methods of construction do evolve over the years. Sometimes better , sometime worse.
  • Despite all good intentions of the owner and keeping up on the routine maintenance, a water infection still sneaked in. However in this case, the water infection is generally a smaller one and not a global problem.

That is not an all encompassing list, but some of the bigger hitters. I'm sure there are many more and we have members here on our forum who have experienced them.

If the camper lives outside all the time, the odds are higher that a leak can occur. The sun cooks all things plastic or rubber to the point they start failing. Rains then can work their way in easier.

A camper that has been under cover for the non camping months, has lower odds of not getting a leak since there is a barrier of some type over the camper during storage.

A camper stored inside all the time when it is not out camping has even lower odds of getting a water leak. The sun does not cook it so bad and the rains on the camper are fewer.

This is all about lowering the odds of getting a leak. The more educated owners can be about how a camper gets a leak and taking "preemptive action", to prevent a leak, the less likely a leak will occur.

I do not know we can really say a camper will never get a leak. I know this may be a sad thing and question ones thinking, why would I want to get a camper, they all leak? The pure enjoyment of camping in a camper "most" times outweighs the leaks... The key is, find the driest camper you can get and afford, educate yourself on how leaks can occur, repair known leaks, and take continuous preemptive action to stay ahead of the issues that can cause a leak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcj7247 View Post
From the pics it's hard to visually see there is any water damage from the outside. Did you visually see the damage on your 1950?
Before moisture meters ever came, you had to use other methods on how to search out a wet camper. These are both visual, touch and scent. And these methods still need to be done even with using a moisture meter.

Point being, yes, once you know what to look for, feel for and smell for... you can find a large number of the leaking areas just by looking and sniffing. The moisture meter really only helps confirm your suspension or tells you, there "might" be a problem in this area and maybe help identify how big it is.

In the case of my T-1950, yes I can see and feel a large number of the wet areas. The moisture meter really only helps confirm what I am seeing, feeling and helps identify how far the wet area is. I knew this was a wet camper when I acquired it. It is a "project camper" where the inside is still in great shape. It just needs a lot of time and TLC to fix the wet areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcj7247 View Post
Are there known areas for water intrusion in specific locations on the 1950's or did your unit have a major issue like a broken window or skylight that caused the water damage in the first place?
All the problems of my T1950 is not model or floor plan related. They came from the prior owner not realizing what continuous maintenance is needed on a camper roof. They totally cared for the inside of the camper and checked it often. They did what they thought they needed to do. You can tell the camper was well cared for expect the roof area and the dealer storing it for them never pointed out the downfalls of what was happening inside the walls.

In the near future I will create a post or a reply to this one, on what to look for in a camper for water infection. I wanted to wait until I could take apart this T1950 for show and tell about, how I spotted it outside first, what the moisture meter told me and then this is what it looks like inside after we opened it up. Pending how long that will be, I may start it before taking the camper part.

Are you going camper shopping any time soon needing to know what to look for? We can create something sooner if needed.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 05-14-2017, 11:31 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcrt View Post
Thanks for taking the time to give a very good overview of this very important tool. On your recommendation John, I bought the pinless type when we were looking for our current camper and I continue to use it to monitor areas that we did have some problems with. This was around the entry door which is located near the back of the trailer on a 2499.

Why did we buy it if it had some evidence of moisture? Because every single Sunline we'd looked at before had a mildew odor and we didn't even need to use the meter, our noses told us to smile and say "no thank you". Water damage from leaks, usually in the roof seals is very common.

I used the higher moisture finding at the right rear corner floor to negotiate a price reduction and then pulled off the lower siding panels at the back end to find the problem. Water had come in from a window near the back that had a slightly dented frame (didn't even see it when we were considering the purchase) and pooled at the lowest point. Replacing some wood and insulation took care of it and we are very happy with our purchase.

I had been using the softwood setting to check and when I read here that you use the wall setting, I went out to try it. It seems to give a lower percentage on wall then on softwood, sometimes half as much, but I think the most important thing is that by checking known dry areas and getting an idea of how much of a percentage reading you might get (say, during a rainy stretch of days), you can then see the comparative difference when coming to a damp area.

Rich
Hi Rich,

Thanks for the good words. Since you lived through rebuilding your prior camper from large water damage, you have, like I have, learned over time how to look for a wet camper.

Your comment on, letting your nose tell you, "No thank you" is a classic! Oh, how the scent of rotting or wet wood smells and the scent once planted in ones brain will never leave you....

Your find on using the "softwoods" setting, h'mm I'll have to play with that.
I never tried that before. When I first started using this meter, I did the wet wash cloth test behind a cabinet door. I can see what the % number means, then go and try to use it. You are right, use the meter to compare on what dry is and then when wet starts. As I said before, this meter is not an absolute, but a tool to help. I know metal gives false readings but I was shocked I could look through the shower surround wall. That dense plastic never seemed to affect it much. And it see's through the black Darco real good.

The algae/slime in the roof of the T1950 has me puzzled. The front of this camper shows all dry inside up high, yet the roof shows 100% all over which does not seem to line up right with the inside. I have tried to clean an area of the roof in the suspected dry section and it does not want to drop below 100% scanning through the rubber/budboard. At this point, it is either the bud board has wicked wet all over it, just the water has not made it down to the ceiling board yet. Or somehow the rubber membrane is deeply infected with some kind of mold that tricks this meter into reading the mold. I'll let you know when I open it up.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the meter. That is a great help.

John
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Old 05-15-2017, 06:15 AM   #6
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Hi John,
I've noticed that the rubber roof material erodes over time. When you scrub an older rood, you've probably seen the white residue that ends up on the driveway. That seems to be the oxidized rubber roof. So, there's probably some porosity that holds moisture and registers on the meter.

What if you tried using a heat gun to gently dry a small area, then checked it again?
A lower reading would indicate that it's mainly (or completely) on the surface.

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Old 05-15-2017, 09:30 AM   #7
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Hi Rich,

H'mm, yes I know about the oxidized white stuff coming off. There may be something to that. I'll give it a try. When I cleaned the one area to test, I did not wait that long and it was still early spring and humid out. The wet may be deeper into the rubber and trick the meter. It has been up in the 70's the last few days and tomorrow to reach 80. I will see if there is something I can do to help get a better reading.

Thanks for the idea

John
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:31 PM   #8
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Great post John! Some day I need to check my '97 like this. Even though it doesn't smell, I'm curious the extent of any damage due to the poorly maintained roof seams.
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Old 05-30-2017, 04:19 PM   #9
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moisture meter

thanks so much for the post..the meter saved me $2500 today. trying to buy a 2003 2370 but now I've found a wet rear kitchen floor under the vinyl. and...the entire front wall under the window reading 100%..this is after hours of me inspecting the whole trailer the other day. now I can bargain with a willing dealer, but I'm unsure as to where to start. he said no to $1000...the meter was a blessing I never would have thought of..every other inch of the trailer was low moisture
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Old 05-30-2017, 07:39 PM   #10
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Thanks for the info, John! It's good to know.
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Old 05-31-2017, 06:14 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rewcamper View Post
thanks so much for the post..the meter saved me $2500 today. trying to buy a 2003 2370 but now I've found a wet rear kitchen floor under the vinyl. and...the entire front wall under the window reading 100%..this is after hours of me inspecting the whole trailer the other day. now I can bargain with a willing dealer, but I'm unsure as to where to start. he said no to $1000...the meter was a blessing I never would have thought of..every other inch of the trailer was low moisture
I think it all depends on how much work you're willing to tackle. It will be a lot of work. Whatever areas you are now able to identify will actually be a larger area once you torn it apart. The amount you save may not seem so worth it once you are into it. Consider carefully.
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Old 05-31-2017, 09:39 AM   #12
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thanks..you're right i know about the spread that always happens. and I have thought about it. visited the trailer for a total of a total of about 6 hours.called dealer and ended the deal.having the ends open , and those cabinets...and loss of use is too much..mainly because I never saw it coming!! two trailer rebuilds in one year is too much haha 67 and still working no time for now...thanks
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Old 05-31-2017, 10:04 PM   #13
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Hi rewcamper,

Sorry late getting back to you. Been out camping...

I see Rich helped you out. He has been through rebuilding one before and knows what happens too.

On the dealer lowering their price, you may never now what he has into it. Odds are high he will not drop below his break even point unless they really want to unload it.

As Rich said, these rebuilds do take time. If time is something one has and the means to do the rebuild, they can be very fulfilling and rewarding. The key is, go in eyes wide open so you know what to expect. I am glad this moisture meter post helped you and your experience also helps others coming behind you.

Thanks

John
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Old 05-31-2017, 10:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wannabes View Post
Thanks for the info, John! It's good to know.
Thanks Matthew. Yes, these meters even help to check and maintain the camper you have if there is a suspect area. Once I get through my T1950 Project Camper, we will have more data and show and tell on how the meter works.

Thanks

John
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