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Old 10-03-2009, 07:56 PM   #1
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tervio
Model CS6000 power converter

In Oct. 2008 I posted a question on blown fuse concerning our refrigerator. After all the help from our readers for trouble shooting ideas, I thought is was due to loose conections. Now I have to wonder if there is a problem in my converter. I bring this all up because we have not had any trouble with blown fuses since then. We have purchased some property and have power at the site. I have the trailer hooked up to power and have kept the refrigerator on so we can visit on the weekends. Today on our visit I walked into the trailer and pressed the battery level on the control panel and it flashed for a second then went dead. The refrigerator had no lights and was warm, we have no dc power. I did find a blown 30 amp battery fuse and when I tried to replace it, the new fuse blew. Everything was working fine until this weekend. Can the power converter be bad? Is there some things I can check before I purchase a new converter?
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:18 PM   #2
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Hi Tervio


Can a convertor go bad, Yes they can but the entire 12 volts generally goes out at once, not just 1 circuit.

You said you had a CS6000 convetor, what year camper is yours? That model I know showed up in the 2003's and some 2004's before the CS6000XL came on the scence. It may be in some 2002 as well or older.

You said you blew a 30 amp fuse, Which one?

There are 2 green 30 amp fuses in the CX6000 that feed the main DC bus.

And there is a 30 amp one in the battery charging circuit out by the battery.

Which 30 amp did you blow and did you loose all 12 volts totally in the camper?

The CS6000 is a 60 amp convertor and looks like this.





Do you have a 12 volt Ohm/volt meter?

John
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:19 PM   #3
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Hi JohnB
We have lost all 12 volt power, the 30 amp that blew is the green fuse on the converter not the one out by the disconnect by the battery. We have a '04 2363 trailer. My converter does look like the one in your picture. I do have a meter but the trailer is on our property 200 miles away. I will have to check things out when I can get up to the trailer.

Thanks Tervio
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Old 10-06-2009, 08:00 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tervio
Hi JohnB
We have lost all 12 volt power, the 30 amp that blew is the green fuse on the converter not the one out by the disconnect by the battery. We have a '04 2363 trailer. My converter does look like the one in your picture.


Snip form earlier post too
Today on our visit I walked into the trailer and pressed the battery level on the control panel and it flashed for a second then went dead. The refrigerator had no lights and was warm, we have no dc power. I did find a blown 30 amp battery fuse and when I tried to replace it, the new fuse blew. Everything was working fine until this weekend. Can the power converter be bad? Is there some things I can check before I purchase a new converter?
Hi Tervio

H’mm the 30 amp on the convertor blew and you have the same one I did. Well the good news is we can talk and point to my pics I have before I ripped mine out….since yours is 200 miles away.

Now to that 30 amp fuse, something odd here unless I misunderstood.

Did both Green 30 amp fuses blow or just one?

See here for the CX6000 and the 12 VDC fuse block I had on my 2004 T310SR. The yellow wire is the + 12 VDC from the convertor and it bolts directly to the 12 VDC bus bar. The convertor is capable of producing 60 amps DC. The battery charge circuit can only take 30 amps as the resettable circuit breaker out on the TT header will limit any more then that. And most likely only uses 13 amps on a good day pending the size battery your have when charging. The 60 amp supply allows the rest of the power to work the camper while charging the battery.





And now see here with the cover off the 12 VDC fuse block exposing the 12 VDC bus bar.



The heavy red wire up top goes out to the battery. It is fed from 2, 30 amp fuses using number 10 awg wire to that heavy red one.

Those 2 green 30 amp fuses really only protect the battery charging red wire in both directions, Battery to 12 VDC bus and Convertor to battery . Something may be shorting out on the heavy red wire up to the battery or the convertor has a dead short and the fuse is blowing because the battery is providing the power.

The actual convertor when it is working is protected by internal circuits that shut down the 12 VDC when an over load or system short occurs.

Before I go too much further, did you blow 1 or 2 of those green fuses? That means a lot to the trouble shooting misson

If you only blew 1, then a short may still exist pulling the convertor down and not giving any 12 VDC to the camper from the convertor.

If you blew both green fuses, then you have no 12 VDC from the battery but yet the convertor should still power up the internal 12 VDC if it is not damaged.

There is also a glass fuse on the convertor in the 120VAC line that may or may not be blow.

See here:





And this may be of some help. This is a pic inside my 2004 T2499 junction box on the frame header.




Since you said you blew a 30 amp and then replaced it (was it 1 or 2 green 30 amp fuses and blew another one) well are back to did you blow 1 or 2 fuses.

Let me know and I can guesstimate from there where to start digging.

I would trouble shoot in this order if you feel you can safely handle this

1. Remove all 120VAC.
2. Turn off battery disconnect.

3. Pull out both 30 amp green fuses inside the camper.

4. Using an Ohm meter, check the heavy Red wire to Ground. You are looking for very close to 0 ohms here on a dead short. 2 or 5 ohms is still a dead short. If this is good then:

5. Unbolt the heavy yellow convertor + 12 VDC wire from the DC bus and using an Ohm meter, check the heavy yellow wire to the DC common or heavy white wire. You are looking for very close to 0 ohms here on a dead short. 2 or 5 ohms is still a dead short. If you are up on killo ohms that can be internal resistance in the convertor and may be OK.

6. I suspect a short to ground or DC common has occurred somewhere to take out a 30 amp fuse.

7. Check the battery voltage. Is the battery drawn down dead?

Once you are past this and no shorts then that will lead you on a power up path of just use the 12 VDC from the battery only and no convertor tied to the 12 VDC bus. If the battery has life and powers up the camper and no fuse blows then that points to the convertor. Before I would reattach the heavy yellow to the camper 12 VDC bus I would power it up and check voltage output put be care full that has a high amp output if it is working.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 10-07-2009, 05:18 AM   #5
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JohnB
I do hope to go up to the trailer this weekend. Thank you for the pics and the info so far. There was only one 30 amp fuse blown and it was the green 30 amp on the left side.

Thank You
Terry
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:34 AM   #6
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Hi Terry

H’mm only 1 fuse and the 1 on the top left.

Thinking about this, there are 3 circuit interruption devices between the battery and the 12 VDC buss bar.

The 2 green fuses between the bus bar and the heavy red wire and then the 30 amp auto resetting circuit breaker up in the junction box on the frame header.

If a short is in the convertor, very possible as others have had that when they go bad, then the convertor will shut down all 12 VDC power but the short is still there. The heavy red wire to the battery if the battery disconnect was on is then the power source and now it see’s a ground fault.

The race is now which of the 3 circuit interruption devices will trip? The top left 30 amp green fuse lost. It may have been the weak link so to speak. The Auto resetting circuit breaker would be tripping and re-setting on and off and you would never know it. It may be weaker then the last 30 amp green fuse not blown.

And/or the top right green fuse may have some corrosion on it and not making good contact so it did not trip. A 2 fuse parallel setup one never knows if both are actually working right if the load is always under 1 fuse rating. The top right fuse may be doing nothing. They may use the 2 fuse setup to help the voltage drop more then actual amp carying capability. 30 amps is all that the auto resetting circuit breaker will allow to and from the battery.

Seeing how this stacks up, I see a flaw in the fusing setup. If the convertor does short out to DC common the battery auto re-setting circuit breaker will constantly keep tripping, cooling down, resetting, then trip again and on and on until the battery is dead. Don't know which is a worst evil, a manual reseting circuit breaker and dealing with it never coming back on again from a flase trip until reset or an auto one that is killing itself on and off constantly.

If the short is in the convertor, (most suspect) well it’s toast most likely. However be on the alert that the battery can also be drained down to almost nothing by now. You may need a test battery to trouble shoot with or bring along a stand alone battery charger to give it some life once again and check the water level in it first.

If there is a short in the insulation of the heavy red wire to the battery, one would of thought you would of eventually blown the 2nd green fuse on the right as the convertor has enough power to over come the 1st one.

My trouble shooting steps still stand in the order I listed above, but be prepared to deal with a dead convertor, a drained down battery and maybe even a burnt out auto re-setting circuit breaker. If you have to go into the junction box up on the frame header, take a fine long Philips head screw driver. Those 6 screws are a royal pain in the foot. Dirt gets in the long hole and jams it shut and the screws are so small they are easily lost

I changed mine out to stainless screws on the outside and a larger size. A tip from a fellow Sunline’er I picked up along the way.




Good luck and let us know what you find out. If you have a digital camera, take that along too in case we have to talk back and forth more we can see what you are up to.

John

BTW, American makes a drop in convertor upgrade to that CX6000. You can just change the convertor and fans or you can change out the entire thing. The case size is the same and fits the hole in the camper
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Old 10-09-2009, 08:30 PM   #7
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CS6000

Hi JohnB
Just to keep you up to date, I did receive a CS6000-XL today. After I posted my question Sat. on our forum I e-mailed American Enterprises Tech support to see if they had any ideas. Sunday afternoon their Tech guy called. He told me he thought the converter was bad and I did order the CS6000-XL. I'm still going to do the test's that you suggested, maybe I can save myself a couple of hundred dollars.

Thanks
Tervio
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:58 PM   #8
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Replacing CS6000

Hi JohnB and others,
Not a successful weekend. Did the tests from your earlier posts and everything was still looking like the converter. The trailer will run on battery power. I unplugged from AC source all the 12 volt items worked properly. I then put the trailer on AC power all the AC items worked plugs, microwave, etc. but the converter was not putting out 12 volts. I did take a battery charger with me to charge the battery. If I have the trailer plugged in and the battery disconnect on everything works.(no 12 volts from converter) when I turn disconnect off all 12 volt items shut off still having AC items working. That is when I decided to put in the new CS6000-XL. Not quite as easy as plug and play like the Tech said it would be. Power supply entry is at a new location meaning the wires had to be lengthened, just little thing like that. I installed the new converter and still the same problem. AC power on, 12 volt running on battery power, no 12 volt from the converter. I'm not sure how accurate the battery level monitor is but after running all night with the furnace and some lights on it showed 2/3 level thats after aprox. 12 hours. Sorry I did not take a camera it was not on my list in my head, I was trying to remember the things to do the changeover and I forgot about the camera.
Any help? I will e-mail the Tech department at American also.
The stainless screws are a great idea!!!!!
Thank
Tervio
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:08 PM   #9
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Hi Terry

Bummer…. Well OK let’s see. I don’t know which version of the CS6000XL you have. The mid 2004 to 2008 version or the post Dec 2008 version.

Here is the mid 2004 version of the CS6000XL








This vintage has the variable speed fans in front, and more fuse locations.

The Dec 2008 and forwards one has 3 stage charging and a different front cover. I have not seen one myself but another forum member has one when his 2004 one died.

Now some testing:

When you put the new convertor in and it would not produce 12 volts, did you test the 12 VDC unhooked from the bus bar? Basically just a stand alone convertor? These new one do not need a battery to run. They are sort of like a monster 12 volt power supply.

And are you sure 120 VAC was feeding it and the on board glass fuse, if yours has one, was OK?

While a new convertor out of the box can be bad, it is not highly likely but may be. And since all 12 volts works on battery, well then there should be no short.

I’m also making an assumption you have the DC polarity of the convertor correct to the 12 VDC bus and the battery has the Red wire as positive? And assume the white wire goes to TT ground? A polarity switch would allow battery to work lights but not with the convertor.

Really curious what American comes back with. The voltage indicator being 2/3rds. I really do not trust them that much. It can go to 2/3rds real quick. Did you by chance happen to get a voltage of the battery when it was only running on battery? That voltage would help point more to a state of charge of the battery.

You have done some good fishing, just have not caught the big one yet…

John

PS the stainless screws, the credit goes to Art and Jan at the June Buttonwood M & G 2 years ago. I just copied his idea. He does not have a screen name here but always shows up with his T264SR and all his cools mods. They are nice folks. Always a pleasure being with them.
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Old 10-12-2009, 04:14 AM   #10
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Hi JohnB,
The CS6000XL that I have is a little different, all the 12 volt DC circuits are in one long vertical line no longer side by side. The cover is different it has a clear panel that allows you to see all the DV fuses and indicator lights(if the converter is working) and I'm having trouble with the cover fitting over the double breakers. I did not try the converter with the DC off the buss bar. I did however try the converter without the battery hooked up. I guess I will wait to hear from American, and then try another trip up north.

Thanks for the help
Tervio
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:29 AM   #11
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Hi JohnB
I thought I would do some checking on the old board last night, this is what I found. Under power the fans are running, but it shows only 7.83 DC volts at the fan connect. The main DC output still shows 0. One thing I did notice under what you have labeled "Multiple DC voltage transformer" there are 15 solder points, 9 one side 6 other. I notice that there are 2 points on the 6 point side not making connection. The board does not look burnt but it does seem like a short or heat issue. From what you remember or if you still have the old board are all 15 points soldered to the board?

Thanks
Tervio
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:54 AM   #12
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Terry

I have the old board still. But I have to find it..... The shed cna be a big place some times...

I'll look tonoight and report back

Thanks

John
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:02 PM   #13
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Don't know if this is any help but I found this site with a little bit of info on the CS6000 and CS6000XL:
http://americandirect.ibuilder.com/P...l?NID=1466143&

... and a rather basic manual for both:
http://americandirect.ibuilder.com/D...S%20MANUAL.pdf

The manual mentions a fuse that blows if the battery is reversed but that doesn't seem to be the case here since is was working before the fuse(s) went "poof!". Could someone have "messed" with the battery while you were away?
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:51 PM   #14
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Terry

The board is up in the attic of the shed. I will get it this weekend maybe on Thursday if I'm lucky. I have to move the tractor to get a ladder to get up there. I checked all my pics and I have more on the components side, but nothing on the solder back side.

If you go to the camper this weekend, please take a camera. I'm real curious on what the new 2008 convertor looks like, outside and inside.

Thanks

John
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