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Old 04-26-2018, 06:47 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by mainah View Post
It should take some effort to get any bushing in place. The springs are hard they should have done some damage to the the bolts if the bushings were trashed.
Yes, in my original posts at the top I described that the bolts were trashed, all but one. I need to supplement with a photo.

Sort of good feeling starting anew, but what a hassle. Original springs have some bend in the middle of the stack, so not so sad to replace anyway.

I’m sure glad I decided to do the work and found what I did at home rather than on the road. Hopefully, I’ll be able to get the springs in hand and do the work next week.
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:36 AM   #42
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Good choice to deal with the worn spring eyes. If there is some real "1/16" play between the spring eye and the bushing, that is a new bushing just waiting to crack....

As Mainah said, and as you found out originally when you went to bronze, the bushing is supposed to be a press fit, not a slip fit. If the bushing is loose, they will go down hill at a 90 degree angle...

Springs, the last time I tried to find new springs for mine online I could not find the size Sunline picked. Mine are shorter than the standard 33" axle spacing. I have not hunted for them in a few years, I'm hoping the options are now more abundant. And I really hope I can get them made here states side. I have not yet crossed that bridge yet.

So when does the axle assembly fest start?
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:06 AM   #43
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Good choice to deal with the worn spring eyes. If there is some real "1/16" play between the spring eye and the bushing, that is a new bushing just waiting to crack....

As Mainah said, and as you found out originally when you went to bronze, the bushing is supposed to be a press fit, not a slip fit. If the bushing is loose, they will go down hill at a 90 degree angle...

Springs, the last time I tried to find new springs for mine online I could not find the size Sunline picked. Mine are shorter than the standard 33" axle spacing. I have not hunted for them in a few years, I'm hoping the options are now more abundant. And I really hope I can get them made here states side. I have not yet crossed that bridge yet.

So when does the axle assembly fest start?
On the springs I was looking at all the options and in no mans land with choices since I don’t know the brands. I pulled the dexter number and found a couple places that had them (search both the code with and without dexters extra zeros). I found on ebay the exact spring model with free shipping for 33 a piece and they had 4. Next best online for genuine dexter was 40 each plus 40 shipping (eastern marine was 44 plus 60 to ship and dexter was 55 per and I didn’t get shipping). I’m hoping there isn’t any monkey business with the order. My springs measured short, by up to 7/16 compared to the 23.5 the spec is. I know odd, but the measurement was solid and the number cross referenced well.

Hoping to do them next week when the springs arrive.
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:44 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB View Post
Springs, the last time I tried to find new springs for mine online I could not find the size Sunline picked. Mine are shorter than the standard 33" axle spacing. I have not hunted for them in a few years, I'm hoping the options are now more abundant. And I really hope I can get them made here states side. I have not yet crossed that bridge yet.
Eaton Spring here in Detroit is a great source for reproduction classic car springs. I've had both coils and leafs made by them now. They can probably make whatever spec spring you want.
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:56 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunline Fan View Post
Eaton Spring here in Detroit is a great source for reproduction classic car springs. I've had both coils and leafs made by them now. They can probably make whatever spec spring you want.

Thanks for the tip. EATON Detroit Spring - The leading manufacturer of leaf and coil springs for the street rod and restoration industries

If I cannot track down American Rockford who made mine originally I will try them.

I looked at their video... WOW talk about a blast from the past...Some of that equipment is still belt driven off a main line shaft...
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:27 PM   #46
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Hi Tod,

Since an "opportunity" presented itself last week.... (the tire failures) I had the camper up on jack stands "again". When I found this most worn and cracked bronze bushing in the right rear spring shackle eye, it bothered me this was this bad. When will that large of a crack get worse as this location already has twice the wear as any of the other??.

This reply on your thread
http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...tml#post142953

This bushing with cracks and the 0.026" wear





Since I had everything off, again.. and I had a full set of Never Fail bushings, h'mm I better just change that bushing and move on. So I did.

I saw slit cut most of what was left of the old bushing.




Slit the bushing on the bottom where the spring eye end wraps ends


Then with some select cold chisels I was to knock it out.


I used an old spring pin with the serrations ground down as a bushing pressing tool.


Then a large C clamp and a deep socket the correct size the spring pin could pass through it when the bushing is pressed home.


I must say, these Never Fail bushings being polymer based sure do press in a lot easier then the bronze ones. It went in as a press fit but less force to complete the press. Lower friction, or the polymer compresses easier or both?

The bushing in place


The ID after being pressed in. 0.588" ID


As a comparison, the Dexter bronze when pressed in is 0.579/0.578" Or about 0.010" smaller than the Never Fail.

Figured since we have a start on tracking mileage and wear now, will see how the Never Fail compares to the bronze.

How is your axle/spring/ bushing/tires/brakes upgrade going?
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:45 PM   #47
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Thanks for the update, I've been following your fun too!

I'm waiting on parts, I "saved" $25 bucks buying axle tie plate kits ("U" bolts and mounting plates) and have been waiting for them for 2 weeks. I finally was able to cancel the order after them being "in the mail" twice. (Don't order from Southwest Wheel co.) I have the parts coming tomorrow from eastern marine. I have two full sets of tie plate kits from the original and the axle flip, but every one of the plates is bent and I wanted to go new 100%.

I mounted one axle and aligned it, but don't have it locked in (no u bolts and plate). My front hanger is perfectly placed and I as able go get perfect alignment on the first axle with just a small amount of adjustment to the hole on the spring seat, so this should be a clean install.

Here is an interesting one. Installing the bronze bushing into the spring eyes. I have 4 brand new dexter springs (made in china, BTW) and the bushings all pressed in by hand. None are loose so as to rattle, but they are not tight.

I bought some spacer washers to support the equalizer and am super happy with how they support the sides of the equalizer. Right now the equalizer is very stiff with the washers in there, but I can force it (so with a little wear, I should have just what I want).

Hoping to get the axles bolted on maybe Thurs or Friday and make some progress with brakes and hubs. Luckily I have other things to keep me occupied .

I have pics, but was waiting until done.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:51 PM   #48
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Dexter and China bushings... I hope they keep after the quality. They can do good quality but it has to be enforced. Pressed in by hand?? That is a new one. The 3 campers worth I had to do were all I could press in with a 12" C Clamp. Most guys had to use a heavy ball joint tool to get them in.

Do you have a bushing OD/ID of these new ones? I have some older Dexter bronze from 2009 I can compare the sizes.

Southwest wheel, odd unless they went downhill. I used to buy stuff from them a long time ago, about 10 years ago was no problem then.

Good to hear your alignment is coming in nicely. That will help tire wear big time. If your camper has a large difference in weight left to right, ideally they are dialed in, in the loaded position. Either under full weight or to measure full weight from top of axle tube to frame and recreate that loaded distance with no weight.

Thanks

John
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Old 05-23-2018, 05:53 AM   #49
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Dexter and China bushings... I hope they keep after the quality. They can do good quality but it has to be enforced. Pressed in by hand?? That is a new one. The 3 campers worth I had to do were all I could press in with a 12" C Clamp. Most guys had to use a heavy ball joint tool to get them in.

Do you have a bushing OD/ID of these new ones? I have some older Dexter bronze from 2009 I can compare the sizes.

Southwest wheel, odd unless they went downhill. I used to buy stuff from them a long time ago, about 10 years ago was no problem then.

Good to hear your alignment is coming in nicely. That will help tire wear big time. If your camper has a large difference in weight left to right, ideally they are dialed in, in the loaded position. Either under full weight or to measure full weight from top of axle tube to frame and recreate that loaded distance with no weight.

Thanks

John
Dexter springs (not bushings) from China. I'll get the OD of the bushings, since they can come out of the eyes easily . I remember in the old springs that they did not go easily, but weren't overly hard with a C-clamp.

Southwest Wheel, I'd say has problems. When the one customer service person's voicemail is routinely too full to accept new messages and she doesn't answer calls, that is a sign of a problem. Just an FYI for members.

On the alignment... with the old springs and unloaded camper sitting on the springs, the Right to Left difference in compression was about 1/4" in the frame to spring seat measurement (compression bias towards driver side). Thinking about it that would probably balance more equally loaded given how we load (for sure not worse). I'm going to set them all the same and go with it, since I'm not going to get a loaded balance and then realign (I always got good wear on the tires except the bent spindle). The 1/4" vertical is not much translated to the horizontal. I'm thinking that will be OK, but will carefully consider contrary opinions.
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Old 05-23-2018, 07:05 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod Osier View Post
On the alignment... with the old springs and unloaded, the Right to Left difference in compression was about 1/4" in the frame to spring seat measurement (compression bias towards driver side). Thinking about it that would probably balance more equally loaded given how we load (for sure not worse). I'm going to set them all the same and go with it, since I'm not going to get a loaded balance and then realign (I always got good wear on the tires except the bent spindle). The 1/4" vertical is not much translated to the horizontal. I'm thinking that will be OK, but will carefully consider contrary opinions.
Hi Tod,

Both springs even when brand new are not 100% perfect in the spring constants of load versus deflection. They are springs.... and springs change within a tolerance. Exactly what that tolerance is, is a really good question...

I will pass along my findings as FYI. This is all "assuming" the axle tubes and the spindles are in "correct" alignment, not bent and not overly on toe'ed in or out.

In 2008 I had some very messed up axle alignment. I had the double whammy, the axle tubes were made wrong with excessive toe out, and I have hangers welded on in the wrong locations... This was the end results.



This is what Dexter declared at the time from my note as what proper thrust angle on the front axle was to the tow ball and the 2 axles parallel.


And then there was wheel toe at each location. Alko and Dexter differed on what proper wheel toe is supposed to be. They both crossed over the top of each other but were not exact.

Bottom Line: What I had ate tires badly on the left rear. The front left was just about perfect and the front right and rear had varying degrees of bad wear.

From that I started with new axle tubes and made adjustable axle seats to be able to align the mess back into spec. and I dialed them into almost within 1/64" in all locations.


My Denman ST's and BFG LT tires both saw the end results of my alignment work. The LT's wore very well in their approx 12,500 mile life. Before I sent them to the recyclers I checked the 3 tires I had left with tread to measure... and one of them was the spare. I was shocked as the face wear was in the thousands of being parallel. I only had 2 running tires to check it from, the right front and the left rear. So I had one on both sides of the camper with data. The other 2 wheel positions below apart.

This spring before I started camping, I checked the front axle to a loaded position to the tow ball. Again I was shocked. The thrust angle was dead on. However the rear axle to the front was out of parallel by 1/8". H'mm. OK what is up with that?

The only way the rear axle can get out of alignment with the front is, spring bushing wear, spring compression, added weight on one side of the camper, rubber equalizer compression plays a role in this too and hanger position being wrong. I had a good handle on all the mechanical locations of the hangers and bushing wear, but leaf spring compression and rubber equalizer was there.

This spring I adjusted the rear axle back into being parallel in a loaded configuration. I know I added more weight to the already heavier slide side with the frame reinforcement steel, so I felt good at least it needed to be tweaked.

I wish I had data from all BFG 4 LT tires as that would of really helped prove how far out an axle or wheel can be and still have OK tire wear.

At this point I feel being up to 1/16" out on front axle tube alignment on thrust angle works on acceptable tire wear. Again assuming the actual wheel spindle is not way out on toe or camber.

There is some level of "thought" that the rear axle may be able to be out as much as up to 1/8" out of parallel and not be real bad on tire wear but I need more data to confirm this. If you have a toe out condition on the wheel spindle and the rear axle is out of parallel up to the 1/8" then that compounds the error and you can wear tires.

If you have a depth blade on a caliper you can do a face check across the tread starting with wheel location on the camper and compare to a new tire (the spare) From this you can tell what wheel location is wearing and which direction. The excess scuff with the road surface is the friction that creates the excess wear from being out of alignment.




I wish we could find some handbook etc that would give real life tire wear per wheel position on trailers but I have not yet found one. If we can find that "guy" or "gal" who has been working 20 plus years doing trailer axle alignment, even semi trailers, they have seen it and know what can be messed up and how far out before large wear comes.

As to the springs, they change deflection every hump and bump. The axles move in relation to each other, just they come back to a natural loaded position. As long as the natural loaded condition creates axle tube alignment within the 1/16" to maybe pushing 1/8" in the majority of the running time down the road, tire wear "seems" to be acceptable. Most folks will age out before they wear out unless they have a gross wheel position problems which is common. Your cross country trips are the "perfect" tire wear experiment in relation to wheel locations. Hint, hint, take some measurements.... and report back a year or so from now.

Hope this helps.

John
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Old 05-23-2018, 08:43 AM   #51
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Thanks John, appreciate it. I've reviewed all your stuff in preparation for this rebuild. Good to remind everyone how bad it can be and how things can be corrected. On this job, rather than the slick adjusters you used, I'm just opening up the indexing hole in the spring seat a bit in the direction they need to go. there is already quite the slop there, just adding a bit more. I didn't need to go more than a 1/32-1/16 on the first axle (forward on one side and back on the other). My plan is that I will align both axles so that they are as perfect as I can measure, within 1/64 or 1/128th.

One other thing I did that you would probably find interesting is that I reviewed a bunch of discussions on how to align tractor trailer axles, I found the tools used (and the directions therein) very useful just to think about how to do it AND the tolerances they work to (sorry, I don't remember any names, I was binge reading). The axles are made to adjust, so they have that going for them, but the adjustments use a metal tape and post off the king pin. They use a spring scale on the end of the tape to tension it, because as you know the length varies depending on how hard you pull. Very easy to fab that up, I'm using that idea.

I will look at tire wear closely when I get this done. My last set of LTs still had tread at 35K and 6 years, but cracked as you know. So what I had was good enough IF the tires only last 6 years. The ones that ran a long time in the position with the bent spindle were pretty worn, but very legal and would be for quite some time. I was rotating pretty aggressively to spread the wear. My new tires look a little more aggressive tread then what I had (I don't have them in hand though and the photo sample was a bigger tire), but there are very very few options in the 15" wheel realm.

We will see, we will see...
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Old 05-23-2018, 06:02 PM   #52
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I'm glad all that old thread stuff came in handy. Learning it was not easy then. Not a lot of stuff on the web on trailer alignment back then. My call to Dexter helped the most.

From your note, I can see you have a good handle on this. Getting it to be within 1/128th... OK I get it, sorry my machine shop background shines through every now and then... Trust me, if you get it with 1/32" you are better than most campers out there....

A spring on the tape measure, h'mm now that is a good thought. A semi trailer is a whole lot longer than our campers and the fish scale sort of takes the guesswork out how tight is tight enough. At least both sides are equal then. I used my calibrated pull...

It somewhat amazes me, this can be done in ones back yard well within tolerance. Why can't the trailer fab shops get it right the first time with all the technology that is out there today??

Alko actually makes an adjustable axle seat which is where I came up with my idea just a little different. See PDF page 13 http://www.al-ko.us/download/10000IbLeaf.pdf

And it seems PJ trailers sells a version now too. https://parts.pjtrailers.com/spring-...le-111802.html

Both seem to start on 10K axles. Not really knowing why they do not bring that down into the smaller axles. Odds are high it is a money thing. Something they can cut out and make the system cheaper.

Thanks

John
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