Hot wheels and blown tires !

[Nightlites13]

Hello all. I would love to hear any feedback on a problem we have been having. Bought our 92 Solaris T2470 used as our second trailer. Everything seemed to be in good shape. We love it and want to keep it going. Everything works but there is a damper on the fun worrying about the trip.

First year on the return of a 500 mile trip. Tire blew out. So being used and the tires were a bit dried out we replaced all 4 tires.

Next year same trip. Blow out of new tire on other side of same axle. Wheel was extremely hot when this happened. Replaced the tire. The dealer where we bought it suggested the brakes were a contributing factor as they were over heated. Replaced all the brakes and 2 backing plates. New bearings and seals and new grease and all that.

This year made the 500 mile trip OK (Broke the return into 2 days) Labor day weekend trip under 200 miles. Notice wheel is very hot. Same wheel as previous blow out. Grease bubbling out of hub. Wait and let everything cool for an hour. Continue at 40 MPH stopping often to let things cool trying to get things home. Tire did not blow but spring broke on the wheel that was so hot. Made it the last 10 miles at 15 miles an hour with the spring tied up under.

A few notes about this recent trip. Rear axle: both wheels quite hot but equal. Seemed hotter than I thought they should be. Front axle as I said driver’s side extremely hot. Not able to touch. Spring broke. Front axle passenger side just slightly warmer than ambient. Not right. Makes me think the brake on that side was not working at all.

Called the dealer. They say it’s time to replace the axles. I can’t keep dumping the dollars into this. It seems there is something wrong. Should be able to go hours at 50 to 60 mph without wheels on fire. They say they measured everything last year for alignment issue when we had the brakes done.

New axles is going to be expensive. Love the Sunline but can’t spend $1500 per year on maint. Don’t know what to do. Not confident replacing axles will resolve the problem and then what would I do? Don’t want to throw it away. Invested a lot so far. Frustrated!

Appreciate any feedback. Thanks, Dan

[Galaxiedriver]

Can you answer a few questions?

Sounds to me like some kind of brake issue.

What kind of wheel bearing grease is being used? How are they being packed and tightened?

How are the brakes being adjusted? Are they maybe being adjusted a little too tight?

Is your brake controller set up and working correctly?

Do you ride the brake while driving?

Answers to these will give us something to ponder.

[Nightlites13]

Tried to answer each question below. Thanks for the feedback

Sounds to me like some kind of brake issue.
We had thought so to and had those all done last year.

What kind of wheel bearing grease is being used? How are they being packed and tightened? All the work was done at an RV dealer that has been in business for a long time. The same place we bought it from. I hope the correct grease and method was used but I am sort of at their mercy I guess.

How are the brakes being adjusted? Are they maybe being adjusted a little too tight? Same answer. They did all the work.

Is your brake controller set up and working correctly? Brake controller is set up and seems to be working correctly. Same truck and brake controller as the first trailer we had fro 7 years and no brake trouble.

Do you ride the brake while driving? Never.

It has been suggested by a few folks I know to take measurements under the trailer to make sure the axles are aligned properly and square to the frame.

[Galaxiedriver]

It has been suggested by a few folks I know to take measurements under the trailer to make sure the axles are aligned properly and square to the frame.
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Unless they were really out of whack don't see that making a wheel so hot you could not touch it.

Can you jack up and spin the faulty wheels to see if the brakes are rubbing and that they spin freely?

[Galaxiedriver]

Originally Posted by Galaxiedriver

It has been suggested by a few folks I know to take measurements under the trailer to make sure the axles are aligned properly and square to the frame.
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Unless they were really out of whack I don't see that making a wheel so hot you could not touch it but, the broken spring has got my attention at the moment.

Can you jack up and spin the faulty wheels to see if the brakes are rubbing and that they spin freely?

The broken spring could hold some clues. Can you look at the broken ends of the spring? Is part of the broken end smooth with maybe some fine lines on it, and part of it, a smaller part, a rough surface like it was torn apart? If so, that could be a fatigue failure due to some kind of cyclical stress. Cyclical stress could be caused by axle misalignment resulting in a wobbling tire, or a badly unbalanced wheel. A bent spindle might do that too.

Is there any sign of abnormal wear on any of the tires or can you tell?

I'm just groping in the dark here.

[Nightlites13]

Thank you, I am going to go and check on that now. My reason for feeling like there is a bigger problem than the brakes is that both blow outs were on this axle and now this problem was the same axle and they had done all the maint on the brakes.

I kep remembering more details. There was also a broken spring on the camper when we first looked at it which they replaced before we took delivery. I think it was the rear axle but wonder if it is a clue to the whole problem.

Will post updates after I jack up the camper and look at the spring.

[Nightlites13]

OK, Jacked up the trailer. Both wheels on that side spin freely. With it jacked up and a good flashlight I was able to get under there and see that the leaf spring is actually broken in more than one place. One leaf is actually broken in 2 places with a piece completely missing. At both points where the break is the metal is silver and jagged. Looks like it just happened. No corrosion or rust at the break. The leaf spring below that one is broken and also jagged but it is rusty.

So apparantly I had a broken spring for some time and what was left has been slowly fatigued until it failed. Prior to the total failure things seemed OK. Could the weakened leaf spring assy cause the over heating. In other words I understand the broken spring put extra strain on the remaining leaf sections but could that have had anything to do with the heat? Did the heat affect the performance of the spring?

Not sure what to make of this but more clues is good.

[JohnB]

Hi Nightlites13

Sorry to hear you are having repeat issues. Something is not adding up from what has been checked and corrected on your TT. This much I can tell you, it is all fixable. Last fall I set out on a search and destroy mission to find root cause of my tires wearing out at an accelerated rate. And this spring I installed new axle tubes due to a frame and axle manufacturing defect that was in my TT from day one. Lucky me…. But in this process I learned a lot I never knew before. While brakes I have done for many years, trailer axle alignment was new. And I had one heck of a time finding the right place to tell me the specs on what right was including many dealers who rep axle manf's... Finally Dexter tech service helped me the best with real numbers.

See this post which has both the trouble shooting link post on it plus the actual fix post.
TT axle alignment - Details (long with lot's of pics)

While what I went thru may be more then the average RV’er does… If you are a little handy mechanically, you can check axle toe, axle camber and axle alignment as long as you have a 25 foot tape measure, a 2 or 4 foot level and some time. If you have access to a hard top surface and can pull off all 4 wheels with the TT jacked up/supported you can do the complete alignment check. While you may not have ready access to the jacks etc, the tape measure and level can tell us/you a lot. Let me know if you feel you want to try this and I will type how to.

But before even doing that, the tires themselves tell a story on axle alignment. If alignment is really messed up, then in 1,500 miles you can tell by the wear what they are doing and what alignment may play in this. If they are wearing dead even, then axle alignment is not in big question. Do you have a 6” scale or a combination square that reads ideally in 64’s but 32’s will do too? And ideally a digital camera so we can see what you are up against.

If you are handy reading numbers off a scale and can measure all 4 tires and then we can maybe back into what may be occurring. At least as far as axle alignment. Let us know and I’ll type on how to do that. And if by any real strange chance you have a dial caliper that would be perfect.

You will be doing check across the tire surface like this but you will be using a scale unless you have the caliper. I just checked mine a few weeks ago and all 4 tires are wearing even within the thickness of a piece of paper (0.007") after 2,500 miles. Which even amazed me they where that good... However that was after my work this spring in axle alignment.




As you can see here, tire wear leaves clues as to what is going on with axle alignment. This is some of what I had from last year. And for sure why I wanted to fix it before putting new tires on.






And a brand new spare never used.


OK so that is axle alignment, but while that will wear tires bad, it does not add up to broken springs, tires so hot you can’t touch them normally and ozz’ing grease.

If you have a brake/bearing issue, the brake drum will be really hot. Be care full to not burn yourself. Feel but do not touch for high heat before making contact. Radiant heat will tell to touch or not. There are 2 areas, the drum OD and the hub area.

Here is the drum area


And hear is the hub area.


Now a brake not adjusted right or dragging will heat the drum real quick. But you also need to sort out when normal heat from stop and go traffic comes along that will for sure heat up even proper working brakes. In the miss adjusted brake, too tight or 1 to tight in relation to the other 4, the tight one since it grabs first will be doing a lot more work and as such heat up hotter then the other 3. This is felt in the drum OD. If it is dragging all the time, well it will heat everything over time.

Bearing heat starts at the hub area and then spreads out. Ozz’ing grease, well what color was it? Pitch black and smelt burnt of just gray and smelt like grease? A crushed/creased axle grease cap can leak fresh grease and then ozze out. Tight or loose bearings tend to over heat the grease and it turns black from carbon and smells burnt.

Now if the metal wheel is slight warm and the tire is so hot to touch, then that points to a tire issues more then the brakes/bearings. I have not yet seen a messed up bearings get so hot it bleeds heat all the way to the tire OD. Unless you have 2 problems at once.

So what can cause a tire so hot you can’t touch it? And is combined with broken springs.

Here are some questions:

Do you run the tires at max cold wall pressure? And what is max cold wall on your tires and what size and load range are they?

Have you ever weighed the TT axles?

What is the GVWR of the TT and what is the Gross Axle rating?

Look up in the wheel well above the tires for signs of the tire rubbing it? Are they any?

Have you ever checked for a bent rim? If the rim is bent the tire will try and slide the tire across the road back and forth and may create heat. If the TT is jacked up and you place a fixed object to the side of the rim and spin it you can see if it wanders in and out and by how much.


Broken springs, hot tires seem to point towards a loading problem. Tires are carrying more weight then designed too and springs too thin or over loaded for the weight. Seeing the tire wear and in what location on the TT will help point us to further digging. While you may not have the tools etc at home to correct the issue, you may be able to help yourself at least sort out some of what is not right.

If the dealer is declaring new axles are needed then there are technical reasons as to why. And if they actually did check the alignment, did they give you a print out? If they repacked the bearings and put new brakes on, then unless you hit and bent something you should not be having brake and bearing issues in one year. And if they totally checked the alignment, then again unless they missed a number of things, your new tires should not be wearing. I’m assuming they checked for worn suspension when they checked the alignment as you can create out of alignment from just worn suspension.

Hope this helps and good luck.

John

[DF5.4]

I am guessing that the broken spring would change the load on the tires. Is the broken spring on the problem axle? Leaf springs also position the axles. depending on how much damage there was the axle could be out of alignment. While you were under the camper did you inspect all the leaf spring mounting points on the frame?

[JohnB]

DF5.4 brings up a good point.

Yes, broken leak springs can create a wheel out of alignment as well as worn suspension and out of alignment axles themselves. If the main leaf breaks there is not much left to hold the axle in location not to mention vertical loading. A sub leaf helps with the load carrying ability and not so much location.

If the spring break is on the side of the axle that attaches to the spring hanger, the alignment would be affected greater then when broke on the end towards the equalizer. Both are a major problem.

Root casue of the spring break will greatly help point to at least one area of the issues. Also where the spring broke as well.

Any chances of getting some pictures of the broken springs on the TT?

You now have our curiosity up big time to the casue of your issues so we can all learn from this.

A tire to hot to touch keeps pointing to a possible loading problem or a heavy form of skuffing/rubbing, scrubbing against the pavement or other parts of the TT. The tread wear should help point to possible causes.

Thanks

John

[Nightlites13]

Wow, Thank you so much for all the info. I will post again after I can get back to it tonight. Yes, I do have the calipers and I am familiar with measuring tread depth.

The broken spring is the hot wheel. I do not know how long ago the first break happened. We did hit a pretty bad pot hole coming back from Maine (The 500 mile trip) but I did not notice anything then. That was August so I wonder if the spring with the break that is rusty would have gotten that way in a month or if that one leaf has been broken for a long time because this was the axle that both blow outs happened on the first 2 years.

It is the front axle. The spring broke on the front side of the axle. The remaining spring attached to the axle is then attached to the hanger in the middle of the 2 axles. The other end is the front of the spring and is hanging down from the bracket on the frame.

I'll try to take some pix later.
Thanks,
Dan

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Nightlites13

Wow, Thank you so much for all the info. I will post again after I can get back to it tonight. Yes, I do have the calipers and I am familiar with measuring tread depth.

Dan, You have a caliper! GREAT.

Measure across the face of the tires in each large tread pocket to create a wear profile.

When recording the numbers on each tire, please note which location on the TT. Front left, Rear Left, Front right, Rear Right.

When you post the numbers, note as to the inside or outside of the wheel the numbers start from.

An approx numbers of miles that are on the tires at this wear time period.

Take pics of the ties if possible so we can see the tread wear patterns. I know it's hard to get them to show up, but pics go a long way here on these kinds of problems.

Originally Posted by Nightlites13

The broken spring is the hot wheel. I do not know how long ago the first break happened. We did hit a pretty bad pot hole coming back from Maine (The 500 mile trip) but I did not notice anything then. That was August so I wonder if the spring with the break that is rusty would have gotten that way in a month or if that one leaf has been broken for a long time because this was the axle that both blow outs happened on the first 2 years.

It is the front axle. The spring broke on the front side of the axle. The remaining spring attached to the axle is then attached to the hanger in the middle of the 2 axles. The other end is the front of the spring and is hanging down from the bracket on the frame.

I'll try to take some pix later.
Thanks,
Dan

H'mm the hot wheel has the broken spring. I'll wait for the pics of the spring pack and the tire wear before I speculate.

Get the tire size, load ranges and max cold wall pressure while you out there. And the GAWR. Gross Axle Weight rating. On the newer Sunlines, the GAWR is on the VIN sticker. Don't know if the old ones have it there or not. Some have axle tags that have axle weight numbers on them, but you can have a heavier axles then spring pack. And some spring packs have a tag on them too. See if your has that tag.

Since you have calipers, measure the thickness and width of the spring leafs. Can back into a range of spring rating from the thickness and width.

Good hunting and we will wait for more info.

Thanks

John

[Nightlites13]

Is there a thread on here explaining how to post picures? I tried search...search hates me. I also tried FAQ but I do not see the question there. Greatly appreciate a how to on that or link to thread that explains.

What I want to post pictures of is the broken spring but in the process of getting the camper jacked up and the wheel off so I could get a good image of the problem I discovered that the right side of the camper has 4-leaf, leaf springs and the left (side that broke) has only 3-leaf, leaf springs.

Does this make any sense to anyone? Is it possible one side had heavyer springs to compensate for te fresh water tank and other heavy parts of the camper. I just did not expect that. Did someone just replace the wrong thing some time in it's life?

Other stuff happened and it got late so I did not get to measuring the tread yet but plan to get into this over the weekend.[/img]

[Sunline Fan]

http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/ph...opic.php?t=179

It's a sticky at the top of the community forum...

I follow you on your post...took me two times reading it over, but I got it.
Different leaf springs...that sounds fishy. I honestly have never paid that much attention before to notice if mine are any different. I looked in some pics of when I put on the Dexter Ez-Flex and mine has four on one side and what appear to be four leaves in the distance on the other side. Regardless, if I have a four leaf setup with a 8600# coach, you certainly don't need them on a 2470 unless they're rated for much less weight. Even if they are, you will still get different movement characteristics out of the two styles which probably doesn't help your problem.

Hopefully Rich (vcrt) can pop in here and let us know what springs he has, since he has the same year and model coach. That way you can determine what it should have.

Jon