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Old 05-26-2010, 05:43 PM   #1
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Help...Shock when touching the door??!!

ok... just picked up this nice 1988 15.5 Sunline... everything going good, cleaning it up an such... well, had it plugged into the house and after a little while we noticed that when we touch the metal; in particular, the door handle we get shocked...

What the heck??!!!

Ive been running the air conditioner, but other than that nothing else..

Oh, I also started the microwave today and it ran for about 5 seconds and it quit as if I blew a fuse or something. I checked the electrical box and the circuits were not tripped.


any ideas??? I've not a clue...

UPDATE: I turned off the air conditioner and the camper was no longer "hot" as in electrified... I plugged something into an outlet and the outlets have no juice... The circuit breakers are not broke and the fuse box has good fuses... ugh
thanks
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Old 05-26-2010, 07:26 PM   #2
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.... well, had it plugged into the house and after a little while we noticed that when we touch the metal; in particular, the door handle we get shocked...
Was that while standing on the ground outside? If so, you are missing the ground wire in your house outlet or extension cord. To be extra safe get one of those little test lights that plugs into a 3 wire socket (Ground Fault Recepticle Tester)


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.... I plugged something into an outlet and the outlets have no juice... The circuit breakers are not broke and the fuse box has good fuses..
Check the GFI. I have one in the bathroom and when it tripps the outside outlet doesn't work!
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Old 05-26-2010, 07:51 PM   #3
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thanks you were absolutely right.. the ground prong on the extension cord that was plugged into the house was missing!! Then, I found a GFI outlet that was tripped..

everything works including the microwave!!!

thank you, Gene..
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Old 05-26-2010, 10:28 PM   #4
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We've run into the GFI tripped issue already - hubby found it at about 6am one day and we all got (not so pleasantly) woken up while he tried to figure out why our other outlets weren't working. One he found that tripped GFI we were good.
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Old 05-26-2010, 11:40 PM   #5
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You may have found something serious by accident... If all is normal, no current should be on the ground (IE skin) of the camper. Having the ground prong in place may be simply dragging the current that shocked you down to "0" but there will still be somewhere that the current is coming from that's at fault. Example might be a faulty motor in the AC, but just about any appliance can do it.

There is such a thing as a plug in GFI, I bet if you put one between the extension and the outlet in your house it will trip... Ignoring this could potentially get someone hurt or cause a fire.
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Old 05-27-2010, 09:53 AM   #6
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AL.....
I'm with Ted on this one. I recommend you get a competent electrician to find the source of your (now temporarily hidden) symptom....and solve it. Electrical problems remind me of diseases.....just because some symptoms are made less obvious doesn't make them less dangerous.

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Old 05-27-2010, 08:36 PM   #7
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I have seen this numerous times in my 40++ years in electronics. The simple explaination is that in any 3 wire power cord there is capacitive coupling from the hot wire to the floating (ungrounded) ground wire. The amount of current is small but, as Al found out, noticeable. That is the reason for the ground wire which must ALWAYS be seperate from the neutral wire.

Now, a simple test to see if there is dangerous leakage anywhere from the hot to the ground, take a small 110 volt light like a 7 watt nightlight and connect one side to the frame and one side to an earth ground. A dangerous amount of leakage will cause a low current light to glow or get to full brightness. (7 watt light = .063 amps)
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Old 05-28-2010, 05:09 AM   #8
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I don't know that this is the source of your problem however in old trailers particularly, the ground connection to the frame has failed.

My trailer is a little older than yours but I suspect you may have similar problems. In my 1982 15.5 Sunline there are three connections to ground.

The first is at the Inverter at the rear of the trailer under the gaucho couch and connects the case of the inverter to the frame. An aluminum wire leads from the case to the frame. You can follow the aluminum wire to the frame.

The second is at the Breaker Box and is behind the black tank. It connects the ground bus bar of the breaker box to the frame. The ground bas bar is where the green wires, neutral white wires and the safety uninsulated copper wires all come together. An aluminum wire leadds from this bus bar to the frame. This is probably the most important connection to the frame. The aluminum wire comes out the bottom of the breaker box and is easy to follow to the frame.

The third connects the batttery;s negative terminal to the frame and is located under the driver's side dinette where it connects to a little bus bar. I believe a white wire leads from the negative terminal to the frame or it may simply lead to the negative side of the Inverter..

The connections to the frame are the weak point. These connections are made via a bolt that runs thru the floor and than thru a frame member. Over time the bolt rusts and the wood collapses, loosening the connection and certainly making a bad connection. I generally replaced mine with stainless bolts and nuts and eliminate the wood as part of the stack (wood changes with time.)

As well I loosen and retighten all connections in the breaker box to insure they are good connections. I find they loosen over time. BE SURE TO DISCONNECDT THE POWER PLUG BEFORE DOING THIS.

I hope this helps though.
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Old 05-28-2010, 05:52 AM   #9
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As Gene recommended get a circuit tester and test the receptacle that you had the trailer plugged into. You already said there wasn't a ground prong on the cord. That is more of a safety device and probably not the under lying problem. The 2 main problems could be the receptacle is wired in reverse polarity or there is a short in the trailer wiring. Even missing the ground prong you shouldn't be getting a shock.
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Old 05-28-2010, 06:16 AM   #10
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The only way you can get shocked by the frame is if the frames not at ground level.

There are two paths to ground for the frame. One is thru the neutral white wire in your power cord and the other is thru the green wire or bare uninsulated copper wire in your power cord. This provides two paths to ground thru your power cord.

The three prong power cord provides two connections to ground. You can only get a shock with a three prong plug if the frame is not connected to ground at the trailer.

I believe there are at least two possibly three ground connections to the frame. I suspect, unless they've been replaced, all are in poor condition in a trailer built in 1988.

They are a little hard to get to but easy to fix when you get to them.

Actually if you can't get to their mounting point on the frame you could run a new wire to any point on the frame in parallel with the old wire.
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:20 PM   #11
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Hi all, new here. I have a 97 Sunline. I'm experiencing the same shocking troubles.
It happened when i turned the fridge on to AC. When I unplug the fridge it no longer happens. What should I be looking for? Is it something to do with the element?
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Old 07-17-2010, 07:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbstrailer View Post
Hi all, new here. I have a 97 Sunline. I'm experiencing the same shocking troubles
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbstrailer View Post
It happened when i turned the fridge on to AC. When I unplug the fridge it no longer happens. What should I be looking for? Is it something to do with the element?
Hi Jbstrailer

First off welcome to Sunline Oweners club. Glad you found us and glad to have you with us. Out of curiosity what model is your 97 Sunline? While it may not be part of the issue at hand it gives us more info that may be unique to that model.

Now to your issue. See this post it may help

Shocking

However tell us more about your problem as you may have 2 problems at the same time in this case.

When you say you get a shock, what are you touching that is giving you a shock?

Are you plugged in at home or at a campground when this happens or does it happen both places?

It sounds like this is occurring when you put the fridge on AC. The only AC thing on the fridge is the 120VAC heating element. There may be a problem in the element or the wiring to it. However you may also not have a good AC ground in your system which is a second problem.

Are you electrically friendly and have a volt/ohm meter and know how to use one? If not do you have one of the plug in circuit testers as shown above and in the post I linked you too?

You may not have a good ground at the source you are plugged into. That is 1st to check.

Then check the plug back in the fridge compartment for ground and or AC neutral being the correct polarity. My 2004 has a receptacle right in the fridge compartment. I do not know if you 97 does but if not then check a wall receptacle in the camper.

Do you have a GFI receptacle in your bath room? And does it work?

Hope this helps. Give us some more info and we can help more.

Thanks

John
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Old 07-18-2010, 06:05 AM   #13
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Hi John,
Thanks for the detailed response. I've had my Sunline for about 7 years now. A 1997 Saturn. No real problems other than the odd plastic component breaking down. and a blown fuse in the microwave. It's been good.
This shocking thing is a recent development. I read those other posts earlier. Checked all the grounds at the frame cleaning them up and making sure there was good contact.
I swapped out the electrical cord i was using with another but that did not help.
Finally I used yet another cord, a new one I had just bought and used a different plug. Guess what , no shock.

Still I'm not sure whats going on with the fridge and can not see where it is grounded. I'm thinking it should be grounded to the propane line , close by the fridge. Unplugging the fridge at the receptacle eliminates the shock. So I don't think it is the receptacle but the fridge itself. Might have to pull it out to see whats going on.
The shock is gone now that I changed the cord. It's in the driveway right now and i won't have time to pull the fridge before we leave to go camping. Hopefully the cord was the only thing the matter.
My brother in-law is the mechanic / electrical guru so hopefully he comes for a visit and checks things out.

By the way this is a great site.
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:50 AM   #14
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There are two versions of this tester. The red one shown above is for Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter outlets only. The black button on it is to test the GFCI function.

The other version is yellow and does not have the button. It is for testing regular, non-GFCI outlets.


I think these two little items belong in everyone's TT. When we stay in a campground with hookups, I first use the appropriate tester to make sure the campgrounds outlet is properly wired. After I plug in the trailer, I then use the testers to check several outlets in the trailer. Under normal circumstances, proper readings on these testers will avoid most potential shock issues. (I also grab my multimeter and check voltage before plugging into the campground's power.)

They're available in the electric aisle of Home Depot, Lowes, etc. and are very reasonably priced. Lowe's currently lists the red GFCI tester for $7.67 and the yellow one for $3.98. An inexpensive multimeter can be purchased for less than $20.

I suggest that testing your power outlet first and then the camper are the first things that should be done when a "shocking" problem arises.
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Old 07-18-2010, 12:19 PM   #15
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Hi John,
Thanks for the detailed response. I've had my Sunline for about 7 years now. A 1997 Saturn.
Looks to me like a T-24A to me...
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Old 07-18-2010, 06:47 PM   #16
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This shocking thing is a recent development. I read those other posts earlier. Checked all the grounds at the frame cleaning them up and making sure there was good contact.
I swapped out the electrical cord i was using with another but that did not help.

Finally I used yet another cord, a new one I had just bought and used a different plug. Guess what , no shock.

Still I'm not sure whats going on with the fridge and can not see where it is grounded. I'm thinking it should be grounded to the propane line , close by the fridge. Unplugging the fridge at the receptacle eliminates the shock. So I don't think it is the receptacle but the fridge itself. Might have to pull it out to see whats going on.

The shock is gone now that I changed the cord. It's in the driveway right now and i won't have time to pull the fridge before we leave to go camping. Hopefully the cord was the only thing the matter.

My brother in-law is the mechanic / electrical guru so hopefully he comes for a visit and checks things out.

By the way this is a great site.
Hi again Jbs.

Nice looking camper! Thanks for sharing.

Some answers to your questions, some info and a question for you.

The LP line should be grounded under the TT. The 1/2 “ pipe that runs under the camper for the LP tanks should have a heavy gage wire from it to the camper frame ground. I would of thought that code requirement would be back to 1997, and if it isn’t, grounding it is a good idea to add one. While the LP line is grounded that should not be the main ground to the fridge.

I do not know what your 97 fridge looks like, but it should look similar to this one, a 2004 unit. They really have not changed a lot in a long time. Show this to brother in law (BIL) and he needs to bring his ohm meter.

The 120VAC is the black cable with the plug on it on the left side plugging into a white standard looking 120 VAC receptacle. It only has room for 1 plug.




The black cable goes to the PC board area. And there it connects 120 VAC hot to the PC board, AC neutral to the PC board and earth ground thru the 120 VAC supply cable to the fridge frame. That is how earth ground from the incoming power line gets to the fridge. And next to it is a bunch of 12 V DC grounds to go to the battery and the fridge components. Make sure they are not corroded.


So that is how earth ground should get to the fridge. When BIL comes over with his ohm meter, have him check that the trailer itself has an good earth ground when plugged into shore line 120 VAC. If a good ground is not coming into the camper thru the shoreline cord, that is problem 1.

To check if there is a short in the fridge heater element, have BIL shut off all power to the camper, 120 VAC and 12 VDC at the battery. Unplug the electric element wires from the PC board. Do a resistance check from each wire of the element to earth ground. If there is a voltage leak inside the element it should show up here.

This is me checking the element resistance back with the Dometic recall came out to make sure mine was within spec. to not deliver too much heat. He will be doing the same test just to ground

You can see the electric element here. It is a 2 wire black cover end probe that slides into a boiler jacket sleeve.




Testing the element


If the element has a path to ground thru either of those 2 wires, then it needs to be replaced.

Something else does not fit here unless again your 97 does not have this or wired this way. All exterior and or wet location receptacles “should” be protected by a ground fault interrupter receptacle. The “general purpose” circuit breaker often times feeds the fridge, the bathroom, the outside receptacle and inside receptacles except the galley receptacle which has it’s own breaker/GFI.

Now the question is where is the bathroom GFI located in the circuit and is the refer receptacle upstream or downstream of the bath GFI? That is a good question. If the refer is down stream of the bath GFI then it should of tripped it if you have an element current leak. But maybe it is on the upstream side which means it will not. A way to check this is, plug in a circuit tester, a light or do a voltage test on the fridge plug. When it is showing power, go inside and trip the bathroom GFI. If the fridge goes dead, then it is down stream. If it still stays hot, well it’s not GFI protected. There may be some special camper allowance in the code for the fridge plug to not be GFI protected. It is buried inside the cabinet area, only a single plug and not intended to be used for anything other then the fridge. So it may overrule the wet area code. And since it is in an outside area it might get false trips as the cover does not have a weather head cover on it. And in this case it would create a number of issues shutting down the fridge. Now that I have thought thru this, I need to check my own to see how it is wired. By reading the wiring diagram below it seems to indicate the fridge is "not" GFI protected. but yet there is a note stating all outside recptacles are protected. Again the refer plug may not be declared as a recept, it might be a service dissconnect.

Now a question for you, I did not get what object you touched and got shocked by? Which did it?

Hope this helps and do report back when you get this sorted out what the issue was. We too learn from you.

John


PS as FYI here is the wiring diagram Sunline sent me for my 2004 T2499. While it is a 2499 diagram the underlying principals should be the same. It may help BIL. Sunline Coach Owner's Club - Sunline Owner's Files - Sunline Solaris T-2499 Wiring Diagram
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:59 PM   #17
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Wow John , thats a big help. Thanks! The fridge looks to be close to the same. Although I don't recall the green control board when i had that cover off yesterday.
I'm going to print your post. My BIL will know exactly what your talking about.
In the mean time I'll look at those grounds at the fridge ( the picture is a big help) and check that the connections are tight. Although nothing looked corroded when i looked earlier.

I was touching the entrance door but also touching the side of the trailer would do the same.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:05 AM   #18
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Wow John , thats a big help. Thanks! The fridge looks to be close to the same. Although I don't recall the green control board when i had that cover off yesterday.
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I was touching the entrance door but also touching the side of the trailer would do the same.


Thanks, hope it helps.

The green control board was behind a small black cover on the left side.

H'mm touching the siding and door handle. I now have to think and go look on how the siding itself is actually grounded. I know my slide has a separate ground wire to the siding edges as it travels in and out. And I know where the main frame is grounded and 1 solid copper wire jumping to one lower siding panel. But I never looked to see how good that connection is to all 4 outside walls. There is so much putty tape in-between the corners that I do not know if a physical ground path will transfer. This now has my curiosity up. Something an ohm meter and some testing will help clear up. I’ll report back after some tests.

Good luck

John
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:48 PM   #19
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.... I'm thinking it should be grounded to the propane line .....
Nothing should ever be grounded to a propane line however the propane line should have one and only one ground to the frame. For safety reasons you really don't want current running through a gas line.
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Old 08-13-2010, 11:05 PM   #20
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Hi JBS

See this post it may be helpfull to your problems.

Camper Grounding to Prevent Electrical Schock

John
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