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Old 07-23-2013, 08:50 PM   #41
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If you look closer at this pic, you can see the outer jacket of the shore power cable a few inches below the box. More than likely, the connector wasn't tightened down on the jacket of the cable properly - or maybe it loosened over time. It just needed to be pushed back up into the box connector and clamped, making plenty of wire available for landing the black on the Main lug as it should be. You can easily see the jacket below the box in this pic - full size is best.

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Old 07-23-2013, 08:52 PM   #42
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From what I could see, it looked like there was a #14 and #12. You can see it in the photo, but then my eyes aren't what they used to be.
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:00 PM   #43
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Quote:
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From what I could see, it looked like there was a #14 and #12.
That would make perfect sense. The #14 for the 15 amp side of the breaker, and the #12 for the 20 amp side. Moving the #12 to the 20 amp side solves that easily.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:28 AM   #44
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Two things if it was why did they land two wires under one breaker? If a cord was ripped out of a clamp I sure would like to have a good look at it once removed from the box. It may well be a #12 wire for the A/C but until I have my hands on it I'm not sure. Call me over cautious but until I have the wires in my hand and a good look at a cord pulled from a box I'm not signing off on the job.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:07 AM   #45
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Due to an improperly
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainah View Post
Two things if it was why did they land two wires under one breaker? If a cord was ripped out of a clamp I sure would like to have a good look at it once removed from the box. It may well be a #12 wire for the A/C but until I have my hands on it I'm not sure. Call me over cautious but until I have the wires in my hand and a good look at a cord pulled from a box I'm not signing off on the job.
I don't blame you. That is wise.

First, someone might have thought the 20 amp was bad - and it could be. May have had some nuisance trips for whatever reason. May have just stuck them both on the 15 because they were putting a wire there anyway and didn't realize what they were doing. No way to guess without testing it out to see. I always opt for the proper installation first and foremost.

Secondly, we can only go on the pics and what Dave tells us, and our experience. I've personally seen a lot of strain relief devices in this condition. I'm not assuming that was yanked forcibly out of the clamp. It's usually (90% +) an improperly secured clamp or gland, or one that has loosened over time and use. Even a "normal" amount of "taking the slack out" repeatedly can pull a cable free of an improperly tightened clamp. I've seen a lot that weren't even tightened in the first place. My gut says this one may not even have indents on the jacket where it has been tightened, but I don't know that. It's only a gut feeling.

The power cord not being secured and the two load wires on one breaker are not related. They are two completely separate issues.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:48 AM   #46
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Sorry guys was off yesterday dealing with a home plumbing issue!!

My suggestions come from living with my better half who is NOT into conserving power! By putting a 30/15 or 20 double breaker in, jumping the main lugs,using the 30 as a MAIN and splitting the other two circuits it provides the safety of a MAIN breaker, maximizes the power distribution, and should also minimize nuisance tripping. I will try to get something visual later on.

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Old 07-24-2013, 01:16 PM   #47
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Dave, here is some info I found on grounding that might help.
It's from the applicable section of the NFPA NEC Handbook, 2011 edition.
The link is the section on RV electrical systems (120v and 120/240v).
I haven't found a requirement for a Main Breaker.


551.56 Bonding of Non–Current-Carrying Metal Parts

(A) Required Bonding.

All exposed non–current-carrying metal parts that are likely to become energized shall be effectively bonded to the grounding terminal or enclosure of the distribution panelboard.
(B) Bonding Chassis.

A bonding conductor shall be connected between any distribution panelboard and an accessible terminal on the chassis. Aluminum or copper-clad aluminum conductors shall not be used for bonding if such conductors or their terminals are exposed to corrosive elements.
  • Exception: Any recreational vehicle that employs a unitized metal chassis-frame construction to which the distribution panelboard is securely fastened with a bolt(s) and nut(s) or by welding or riveting shall be considered to be bonded.
(C) Bonding Conductor Requirements.

Grounding terminals shall be of the solderless type and listed as pressure terminal connectors recognized for the wire size used. The bonding conductor shall be solid or stranded, insulated or bare, and shall be 8 AWG copper minimum, or equal.
(D) Metallic Roof and Exterior Bonding.

The metal roof and exterior covering shall be considered bonded where both of the following conditions apply:
  1. The metal panels overlap one another and are securely attached to the wood or metal frame parts by metal fasteners.
  2. The lower panel of the metal exterior covering is secured by metal fasteners at each cross member of the chassis, or the lower panel is connected to the chassis by a metal strap.
(E) Gas, Water, and Waste Pipe Bonding.

The gas, water, and waste pipes shall be considered grounded if they are bonded to the chassis.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:13 PM   #48
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Quote:
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Due to an improperly

I don't blame you. That is wise.

First, someone might have thought the 20 amp was bad - and it could be. May have had some nuisance trips for whatever reason. May have just stuck them both on the 15 because they were putting a wire there anyway and didn't realize what they were doing. No way to guess without testing it out to see. I always opt for the proper installation first and foremost.

Secondly, we can only go on the pics and what Dave tells us, and our experience. I've personally seen a lot of strain relief devices in this condition. I'm not assuming that was yanked forcibly out of the clamp. It's usually (90% +) an improperly secured clamp or gland, or one that has loosened over time and use. Even a "normal" amount of "taking the slack out" repeatedly can pull a cable free of an improperly tightened clamp. I've seen a lot that weren't even tightened in the first place. My gut says this one may not even have indents on the jacket where it has been tightened, but I don't know that. It's only a gut feeling.

The power cord not being secured and the two load wires on one breaker are not related. They are two completely separate issues.
The general cause of camper power cord damage is not unplugging the cord when you leave with the camper 30 amp plugs hold on pretty good. I have removed several from the local campground's power posts. Usually it rips the plug off first however it looks like it was pulled out of the box. A loose cord strain relief will not pull a properly tightened #10 power connection free from the lug with out considerable effort. My comment to the OP was find some one that understands camper wiring I still stick by that comment, the box is not wired properly and needs to be done right by some one that understands what they are doing in his neighborhood hands on. The black line wire was against the neutral bonding strip that was the short no doubt but there are multiple issues here grounding included.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:40 PM   #49
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Quote:
A loose cord strain relief will not pull a properly tightened #10 power connection free from the lug with out considerable effort.
Exactly right. That brings into question as to whether it was properly tightened as well. Dave said it didn't even look like it had been landed - as if it had been freshly stripped and not crushed/smashed. My suspicions are that it was slipped into the main lug and someone failed to tighten it, along with the cord's box connector. I've seen countless cases of this by do-it-yourselfers and even by electricians that get in a hurry. Some of these little things are very easy to overlook - trust me. There are multiple issues with the installation, you are right. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if once everything is hooked up and secured as intended, all will be well with it.

Quote:
...the box is not wired properly and needs to be done right...
That's what I've been trying to convey, and that's exactly why I would discourage altering the intended/designed installation (such as jumpers and the like) unless there is a good specific reason for it. I'm kinda "anal" like that. There's the right way, ways to make it work, and wrong ways. It does need to be done right. I couldn't agree with you more.
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:45 AM   #50
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Dale, when I was in the Seabee's (Navy Mobile Construction Battalion similar to Army Corp. of Engineers) we had a saying: right way, wrong way and Navy way. The Navy way wasn't wrong......just dated.....Like WW2 dated. :0
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:11 PM   #51
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Quote:
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Dale, when I was in the Seabee's (Navy Mobile Construction Battalion similar to Army Corp. of Engineers) we had a saying: right way, wrong way and Navy way. The Navy way wasn't wrong......just dated.....Like WW2 dated. :0
We had a similar saying in the CG.
The 2011 NEC isn't outdated yet. Not until next year.
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:43 PM   #52
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Hi Guys,

Just came upon this post. Something is not adding up and not trying to upset the apple cart, just trying to make sure we have the complete picture.

It appears we are past the loose wire and the dead short. Now is how the power box itself is wired.

If both of the circuit black wires are "still" tied to the load side of the one 15 amp breaker, this has high odds it is not correct. The picture may be an optical illusion however one of those wires "appears" heavier then the other, like a #12 and # 14. Look at the grounds, you can see what appears the thickness difference.

Something not confirmed yet is, does this camper have a roof AC unit on it? Detour can you confirm this?

Also confirm what else runs on 120 VAC, is there a microwave? Is the fridge gas only or is there en electric option? The hot water heater, is this all LP gas? Odds are high it is all gas, just checking.

If the 2 circuits are original from Sunline odds are high they brought them back to the power box because they needed 2 independent circuits.

In this case a picture of how Detour has the unit wired "now" will help greatly.

Since the prior owner "may have" doubled up 2 wires into one breaker, this points to something else may not be right.

We need more info.

Hope this helps

John
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