Bent front frame cross-member on '07 Solaris T-2499

[clarkldc]

I have a problem with the front frame cross-member. The unit has been towed for about 10K miles, but on the last trip I noticed the bent cross-member. Last year the battery supports bent and I just thought that they were just not sturdy enough. It now appears that the outer front corners of the front frame cross-member are sagging which places a twist on the tongue frame members and the center section of the front cross-member. The front center section has bowed backward and the battery supports are bowed. Is there anyone else out there who has had a similar problem, and if so, how did they repair the problem?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

clarkldc

[JohnB]

Clarkldc

First off welcome to the forum. A great place to share all kinds of stuff.

Now to your problem. I have a 2004, T2499 that has the older style frame. 5" channel iron frame and 5" channel iron A frame tongue. And I have had no issues and I have a heavy tongue weight on that camper.

HOWEVER, The timing of your post is sort of unbelievable. I am in contact now with a fellow camping buddy owning a 2006, T2499 having frame issues. His battery supports are bent up and the A frame is bending. His is a 2006 model made in April of 2005. I was trying to see if I can get permission from him to post pic’s of his problem and the fix that was just recently done. I do not want to post them until I get his approval. I wanted to put a heads up post to others out there with the newer frame style T2499 to have them check theirs to see if it is a common problem and what is the common denominator.

Here is what I know so far. In 2005, Sunline and Lipert changed the frame from a 5” channel iron main frame with a 5” channel iron A frame tongue to a 6” I beam with a 4” channel iron A frame. I really do not know why it changed other then it was added along with a numbers of other 2005 upgrades to the T2499. I’m assuming the 6” I beam frame was to make the main frame stronger as mine does have flex to it on the main frame, but all camper have flex on the main frame to some degree. So do not think all flex is bad. Just when it goes to far.

There are a number of T2499 owners on this site and we can maybe figure out the common thing that some have had failures with. You are now the 3rd person I know of with the issue on the newer style frame.

Back to yours.

1. Can you confirm you have the 6” I beam frame with 4” channel iron A frame tongue?

2. Do you know your loaded actual tongue weight?

3. What size WD bars are you using and what brand/style WD hitch and sway control?

4. What dealer did you buy your T2499 from?

5. What is the date of Manufacture? It is listed on the VIN sticker on the front left of the TT.

6. Any chance you can take some pic's of your issue?

I do not want to speculate to the root cause of the problem, more to help gather more info right now.

Hopefully this helps you and others.

Thanks

John

[Tweety]

We have the same frame and crossmembers on our 2753. Does this problem seem to be unique to the 2499? and if so, can you speculate as to why? So far our welds look fine and everything looks flat.

[henryj]

Our 2499 was built in Jan. 05 and it has the 6" I beam and 4" channel tongue, so this is some cause for concern. So far everything looks nice and straight and we have towed for more than 10,000 mi. Since this is the frame on newer 2499s, maybe it's a more immediate problem and we will escape.

John, or Clarkldc, I hope you can post pictures as I'd really like to see what this looks like.

Funny thing is when we bought the 2499, after several years of RV shows, I remember thinking the A frame looked a little small for a trailer that size.

Henry

[JohnB]

Pam

I do not want to alarm everyone we have an issue, this is more of a heads up to look and right now this is only on the 2005 and newer T2499’s that we have any cases of this. That T2499 floor plan loads different then your Tweety. And after measuring your tongue at the M & G, you are not in the heavy league.

Henry

I have received some confirmation back for my buddy that it is OK to post some pics of what his issue was to help the general cause of us fellow Sunline owners. I’ll have them up soon. This buddy and Clarkldc may be the closest we have to actual data/issues. Henry I know you are a “into it” type of camper and your good fortune/skill may help explain some why you are not having issues and we have on the other 2.

Can you fill in these questions:

1.Do you know your loaded actual tongue weight?

2. What size WD bars are you using and what brand/style WD hitch and sway control?

3. What dealer did you buy your T2499 from?

4. What is the date of Manufacture? It is listed on the VIN sticker on the front left of the TT.

You said you had the 6” I beam and the 4” tongue already. Starting with this little bit of data we might me able to pull together some commonalities.

More soon.

John

[henryj]

John, here are the numbers for my still straight 2499 that has been towed at least 10,000 mi.:

1. Loaded TW (I don't carry water) 900 lb.

2. Hitch: Equal-i-zer with 1000 lb. bars

3. Dealer: Coachouse RV, Shelburne, ON; delivery Sep. 06

4. Mfd: Jan. 05

I hope this helps with a small piece of the puzzle. Given the number of newer 2499s in Sunline Club, this is still a fairly rare occurrence.

Henry

[Hematite]

Our 2499 crossmember was straight until last weekend. Now it, too, is bent in the center. Upon looking at the construction of the frame, A frame, and crossmember area it wouldn't require a degree to see that this area looks pretty weak. The crossmember is the only crossbrace for the entire front of the unit. It's not made of a very substantial gauge of steel, at least in my opinion. There is a lot of weight and twisting forces at work here.
Question is: Will Lippert step up to correct the problem? My unit was built in September 2005 and I'm using a Reese HPDC hitch with 1200# bars.





The top photo shows the center crossmember bent and the lower shows the bend from the top. I not real happy right about now.

[JohnB]

Fellow T2499 Friends

Here is the info and pic’s from my one buddy who I have been in contact with.

This is the newer 6” I beam frame with 4” channel iron A frame tongue construction.

He does not know his tongue weight.

The date of Manufacture was April 2005. Ultra Model. (Nice TT)

He was using a 750# Reese WD hitch using a friction sway bar sway control. Actually light for that floor plan but that is what he had.

He believes this may have happened going down a rough patch of I78 but is not exactly sure.

Here are the pics

Note the bent up battery support angles. This seems to indicate that the A frame twisted to cause a bend like this.


Here is a bottom shot. It is bent in by the middle where the battery disconnect switch is. Also note it cracks the frame header on the bottom where it attaches to the A from tongue.


Here is a pic of the header plate cracks and where it looks like it pulled away from the channel iron. The focus is off so I cannot exactly tell. The rusted area is I’m sure is the lower flange cracked.


And here is the correction that was added to his unit. A piece is 1” x 2” by 52” long structural tubing was added across the A frame. He did have a frame shop weld it back together before the addition of the tube but it had broke on the first strip out withut the addition of the extra reinforcement. So this additional fix is the 2nd fix. They traveled 600 plus miles since and to date have not had any more issues.


This camper buddy tried to connect with Lippert on the problem but did not get thru to have someone actually get back to him. He did get resolution with his TT dealer with the 2nd fix.


I’m traveling for work right now and I do not have any pictures of my 2004, T2499 using the older style frame with me to compare this to. When I’m home next Wednesday I take some for comparisons.

Rick your failure looks very similar to this. Can you take some more pic’s of yours to show how the frame is made up and how the A frame is tied to the main frame? Close and far away pic showing the setup. Also if you can measure the frame header, width (height), the lower flange width and the thickness?

From first glance it looks like the A frame took a twisting action from WD when going into a turn. When the TV turns and the TV or TT are at a slight angle to each other, the inside WD bar is taking all the load on that one side. See here on this one pic of mine showing this action.



The Reese DC or the Equal-I-zer, both good hitches, can concentrate the load on one side as they do not have chains on both WD bars per say. However in the pics of the failure above, my camping buddy did not have the DC or the Equal-I-zer, just a plain 750# WD hitch with chains. So both sides of the A frame had load on them just the inside of a turn would have more.

The frame header buckling I can only piece together to come from this A frame twisting action from what I can see right now. However my camping buddy thinks it “might” have happened in one hard bounce on the highway. I do not know for sure but 1 large inline drop action I cannot see how it will create that buckle in the frame header.

Anyone else with info, please share what you can so we can piece this together more to help others. It appears to be affecting the 2005 to the 2007 models. From Clarkldc, Ricks and my buds years TT.

Hope this helps

John

[Tweety]

So are you saying it may be at least partially a function of the type of WD hitch? heavy tongue weight? and sharp cornering? Those of us following Pat & Cindy know that their 2499 has been on some REALLY bad roads. Have they had a problem? We took Tweety (although I know it's a 2753 and a light tongue weight unit) around some steep hairpins (probably 8 of them) where the hitch was making some pretty interesting noises, while the back was riding on the dolly wheels. I guess it's a good sign that she's still straight after that? I also guess it wouldn't hurt to have that extra piece welded on as a precaution...especially for people with the 2499.

[Hematite]

JohnB: Yes, later today, barring rain, I will take detailed pics and measurements.

I'm convinced that my crossmember buckling was not the result of a bad bump. When the Sunline was being transported to my house it took quite a bump on the NYS Thruway and nothing like his occured. This unit has Soft Ride suspension so shock is somewhat mitigated.

I'm also convinced that a turn, while in a non level situation, is what caused the crossmember to buckle. That is, a situation with the front of the truck uphill and the front of the Sunline headed downhill at the same time.

I notice that the other Sunline actually broke the crossmember metal. In my situation, the metal is only bent. My observation of the whole situation is that there is inadequate support to the A frame to prevent twisting and that the crossmember is also inadequate to tie the A frame and main frame together. It is simply a stamped piece of steel. Not a lightweight stamping but not a real structural weight piece either.

My thought is, once I have a body shop use a porta power to straighten the "crossmember", I'm going to have a heavy tube or angle iron back it up and have 2" x 1/4" steel bars welded on top and bottom of the A frame. 2 on top and 2 on bottom. That should completely stabilize the A frame to prevent twisting forces.

[Hematite]

Ok, it looks like immediate rain so I went out quick and took some pics and measurements.


This is where the 4" channel meets the 6" I beam. Not too clear in the photo but I imagine pretty standard joining.


This is another shot of the back of the "crossmember". The larger 1 3/4" top flange is evident as well as the tiny 1/2" lower flange. The metal thickness is .1" . Basically, the virtually useless 1/2" flange yielded (not surprising). As I said, I'm not an engineer but I don't think you have to be one to realize that this piece of metal is not going to be able to stop the A frame from twisting...for long.


More of a side view.

I don't think it was a mistake to go to the 6" I beam but I do think it was a mistake to go with a 4" c channel without adequate reinforcement.

[Hematite]

After looking at the 2 different Sunline pics, I can't help but think that if a piece of metal is bent repeatedly it breaks. Makes me think that the other Sunline probably had been subjected to repeated flexing in the area of the break before the break took place.

Except for the first post, I probably would not have noticed this until it broke. Before I took the Sunline out (my first trip as the current owner) I know for a fact that the crossmember WAS straight. It did happen on this maiden voyage and there were absolutely no bad bumps, etc.. Twists and turns, yes.

It is strange, though, that I was blaming the bend in the crossmember on the Reese HPDC system with the 1200 bars for maybe twisting the A frame. The other Sunline had a setup that I would think that would not cause a problem.

This Sunline has about 2600 miles on the road. I don't know the answer but I hope we can find out?

[clarkldc]

Fellow Sunline T2499 Owners,

Let me pass on the following answers.

1. I have the 6" I beam frame with the 4" C-channel A frame tongue.

2. I do not know the loaded actual tongue weight, but let me say that since I have an F250 SD Diesel with a long bed I put much of the weight in the truck bed to avoid adding too much to the trailer.

3. I have a Blue OX SwayPro BXW1000 WD hitch and sway control designed for 1000 lbs. maximum tongue weight.

4. I purchased the trailer from Brooks Ramsey RV in White Marsh, MD.

5. The date of the final inspection was May 4, 2006. VIN number is 1LC2S2L267D267078.

6. I will add some ugly pictures of the front frame cross-member. I have already removed the propane tanks, batteries, and the battery disconnect switch, and the junction box (from the cross-member)in preparation for welding repair.

Let me add that I have spoken to Mr. Chuck Bell at Lippert Components, Inc. He told me that indeed my frame had been manufactured by Lippert of Denver, PA based on the VIN number. He said that Sunline developed the specifications for the frame and Lippert built it to their specs. He also stated that Sunline had specified the use of thinner guage front cross-member from 10 GA to 12 GA and that the cross-member was hot formed from sheet steel. He told me that they were trying to make right the problem we are having, but I do not know if, or when this will take place. Some of the repairs in the past were the use of the 1"x2" tube channel steel welded to the cross-member to stiffen it. I am awaiting a return phone call from him as to what Lippert might do for me. I think that the damage to my frame is beyond this simple fix and may require the replacement of this cross-member with at least 6" C-channel.

I'll try to add the pictures in my next post.

[henryj]

After seeing Rick's picture last night I headed out this morning for a closer look... and I do have the beginnings of this frame damage. Some photos first and then I'll sum up with my take on the problem.

This is the early stage of the problem illustrated by John and Rick. Although it is not clear in the photo, the front cross member is bending in the area exactly between the legs of the A-frame.


This view is to the rear of one leg of the A-frame where it is welded to the main I-frame. Note the 2" gap between the top of the A-frame and the bottom of the floor. This weld is just about all that is carrying the weight of the tongue.


A matching "C" is cut into the front frame cross member or header to allow the C-channel of the A-frame to pass through and become the tongue of the trailer. Note the 2" gap at the top arrow where that thin steel (plus the weld in the previous photo) is all that carries the weight of the tongue. At the bottom arrow, the A-frame is not even welded to the cross member.


From the outside, note again the crude "C" cut into the header to allow the A-frame C-channel to pass through. This should have been welded in and IMHO the cut at the bottom seriously weakens the already flimsy front cross member.


Note the size of the coupler compared to the A-frame. IMHO this A-frame should have been 2" taller for a trailer of this weight.


I'm not surprised Rick didn't see this damage happening. This initial stage is subtle and I could easily convince myself that mine is due to sloppy workmanship and in fact wouldn't even have noticed it without lying on the ground and looking across the full width--after having read this thread. I don't believe this kind of damage is caused by bumps, however big, in the road--they would have to blow out the tires first. Bump forces are transient and quickly dissipated over the entire structure of the TT and TV. I agree with John and Rick, this kind of damage is caused by strong long term, or repeated, twisting forces.

So why is Rick's so much worse after 2600 mi. than mine at 10,000 mi.? If it really is frame flex, that will happen every time in the transition from street to driveway or camping on uneven ground. My trailer has only left my yard maybe half a dozen times in two years. And on our long trips we tend to stay in fairly smooth level RV parks too. I'm wondering now if the wd bars should be unhooked before making the really tight driveway and campsite moves. I could handle that on arrival, but it would be a major pain to have everything loaded up, pull out and then stop on the road to hook up the wd bars. I also think a fair amount of additional force and flex is introduced when cranking up the rear end of the truck to hook and unhook the wd bars. A weekend camper would also be doing this much more often than a long distance traveller.

The damage we're describing in this thread is not caused by any operator error or anything else out of the ordinary. It is caused by poor design. The A-frame is welded on the inside end and supported by a thin piece of metal sheet with only a 2" height to carry the full tongue weight. There is no additional support or bracing between the A-frame and I-frame and the A-frame doesn't even contact the floor where it would gain considerable extra support. It actually looks like the A-frame was added as an afterthought rather than properly integrated with the main frame. Like Rick said, this isn't rocket science, I've seen wheelbarrows built better than this.

I have been very happy with my Sunline and appreciate the enthusiasm of many here who have never owned anything else. In two years of ownership I have adjusted the exterior door latches and that is it--and the refrig. recall. But now both Sunline and my dealer are out of business and I should still have one year of warranty left. While most camper components are generic this is a situation where we really need the factory. But then my previous Aliner had a rotten floor which was a design flaw and the factory didn't stand behind it either. Even so, there's nothing like a rotten floor or broken frame to sap the enthusiasm. I did google "Lippert frame" and 8 out of 9 links on the first page alone dealt with bad and broken Lippert frames on various RVs, but I can't see them doing anything for us without the factory behind us. I wonder if this should be reported to NHTSA?

If I had some short trips scheduled, I'd take some measurements and see if the situation got worse, but our next "outing" is a 5 week trip to the OR coast and back. My brother, who's a retired Cat engineer, is coming for a visit next week so I'll get his professional opinion before I do anything.

Henry

Clark, I just saw your post too. Thanks for that info on Lippert.