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Old 07-16-2008, 09:55 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hematite
JohnB, I'l get on that today and check the straightness of the A frame. The area that the Sunline is not completely level (slight slope for drainage) but I'll use squares and measure across and get pictures. there's no doubt that once the header buckles, there has to be a twist in the rails.
Rick

Take a few pics straight on the tongue showing the full left and right side. Like straight on the from the back of the TV.

And a full left and right side of A frame and header view.

Can draw arrows on them showing what I'm talking about.

And any other pics, help full too.

John

Jason, any thoughts appreciated. There may be multiple causes to create the same end result. Right now all we have is the end result which is , not good. How it got that way, good question.

The one thing that rings clear, if metal bends and stays that way, then the forces created are higher then the design can take. (Duh… ) Part of an answer to the fix is knowing where all the forces come from. This was missed in the original design, obviously….
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:07 PM   #102
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I just heard from a friend of mine that was a salesman at Restless Wheels in Manassa, VA. As of about an hour ago, they have not had any 2499's come in with bent frames. BUT, as my son said last night, unless you really look at the crossmember, it doesn't jump right out that it is bent.

I am still waiting/hoping to hear from Stuffys

Kitty
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:35 PM   #103
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I use to follow this forum when it was brand new and I had just bought my Sunline, but drifted away from it when life got busy. So fast forward to present and I find myself reading this frame thread.

Two things need to be mentioned about my situtaion. One is my 2499 is a 2007 and may well have been among the last few ever built. We ordered it in August, and took delivery October 17th, 2006. It has a number 7404 printed on the front of the frame in white marker. It is therefore likely that Sunlines latest efforts in fixing the frame issue would be evident on my trailer.

The second point I should mentions is that my trailer has never been used because an injury put me out of camping for quite a while. My Sunline has been at rest for nearly two years. Shame I know but life takes many twists, and that's neither here nore there now.

Well not wanting to be left entirely out of this discussion I took a nice long lay down look at that front frame construction and I can tell you that it looks and measures exactly like the photos sent in by kathyh. Obviously no damage since it's limited mileage has not been enough to be a fair test of this presumably last Sunline design .

If having my 2499 in the total accountability helps in anyway then it was worth my writing in...

Finally..a warm hello to JohnB and kanyonkitty..both original friends from when I was ordering our 2499 and subsequently when this forum got started....I'm alive and well and yes even planning a camping trip shortly.

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Old 07-16-2008, 02:16 PM   #104
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RE: Bent frame front cross-member '07 Sunline Solaris T2499

JohB,

I did not have a chance to read your post about the desired measurements before I had returned from the RV storage lot where my unit is stored. I did however make some measurements myself.

My front battery angle bracket measured 0.102"- 0.105" thick
My rear battery anble bracket measured 0.127" - 0.132" thick
My header (cross-member) ends measured 0.106"- 0.105" thick

The left side of my tongue A-frame does not show obvious twisting, but I have photographs which to me shows the evidence of twisting. I also photographed the reinforcement plate welded behind the header. This plate is 3"x6"x0.25" and is welded to the header at the top and bottom flanges as well as the 6" web of the header C-channel, and to the 4" A-frame C-channel. Here are some photos.

This photo shows the 3"x6"x0.25" reinforcement plate and welds



This photo shows the string streched between the two ends of the header with the roll tape measure touching the lower flange of the header. Also note the rearward deflection of the center section of the header.



This photo shows the total drop of the header ends (7/8"-1") at the center of the header.



This photo shows the string streched between the two ends of the header with the roll tape measure touching the lower flange of the header. Also note the rearward deflection of the center section of the header.



This phot show the drop of the right side end of the header relative to the A-frame C-channel.



This phot show the drop of the left side end of the header relative to the A-frame C-channel.



This is my trailer ID tag.


I hope that these photos help to add more data to the database relative to this frame issue. In my mind if the welds at the header/reinforcement are sound and the outer ends of the header C-channel drop by 7/8"-1" then the only conclusion to be drawn is that the A-frame C-channel must be twisted slightly causing the center section of the header to buckle (mostly at the bottom) and the rear battery angle bracket to bend. The bottom of the A-frame C-channel must have compressed the center section of the header. All bet are off as to what may have followed.

My thoughts!

Larry
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:53 PM   #105
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JohnB:

I took a bunch of photos using levels. These are probably not what you wanted, now that I think of it. I simply couldn't get a pic from the front looking toward the Sunline there was too much in the way.

Ok, this shows that the trailer was leaning slightly.

Machinist square showing the lean


Square resting on top of frame near header. Note bubble is way to the right and there is a gap at the top.

Square in same position held to side of Aframe. Bubble toward middle.

Square near WD gear. All this on curbside. Note that again there is a gap at the top of the C channel as in 2 pics previous.

Square on non door side

This side the square sat square on the Aframe. Note bubble WAY off.

Square further forward

Level on door (curb) side.

Level on header/main frame area.

Level on non door side siding.

Level on header/ mainframe area. Bubble WAY to left.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:56 PM   #106
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I got a headache trying to figure out what these photos with the levels mean. Maybe the headache was from allergies, pollen is bad today!
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:02 PM   #107
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JohnB you are on to what I think is happening,knowing what I know about frames on cars and trucks,I think the A-frames are twisting causing the header to buckle,if that front header was thicker and had a wider lip that would stop the frames from twisting,this would also explain why bink has not had any problems since his repair and if I had a 2499 with this frame issue that is what I would have done to repair mine also,if that is indeed what is happening that is actual good news because it's a relatively easy fix.

I would also just like to offer that anybody that is near by me with this problem I will make repairs for nothing but the cost of the metal to add as the support,I fix frames for a living so I got access to all the tools and welder to make the repairs.


also as a warning before any welding is done on anyones coach make sure that the battery or batteries get disconnected
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:15 AM   #108
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Hi Folks

Rick and Larry I’m still looking at your pics.

Rick trying to figure yours out. If you lay a 2 to 3 foot straight edge on top of the A frame by the snap ups and then drop down with the combo square “I think” if there is any permanent twist in the channel it would show up and the vertical surface is no longer square to the straight edge.

I had today off from work cleaning up the big camper to go camping on Thursday. And this is still on my mind so I did some fiddling trying to see if I can reproduce the channel torsional forces in some fashion. I still cannot find the direction of another force that will bend up the battery bracket or buckle the header the way it is so the channel has to be twisting to allow the header to buckle. I do however feel it is both a torsional twisting combined with the downward vertical weight of the TT at the same time. It is not just this twisting action from WD. The twist is there, how much it adds to the failure, will only come out in calculations or stress testing.

Larry’s header now shows signs of the outer ends of the header that are outside the channel being bent down. His header is also shot. BUT this shows that the header is stressed at the A frame so when the I beam is pressing down on the header normally, it can impart high stress in a rotational direction towards the Channel. The A frame acts as a pivot point. The I beam is sort of held up by a cantilevered arm. That loading combined with the WD twist and extra downward loading on the A frame might be what breaks the camel back. The header and the A frame cannot the handle those forces the way it is made

Sunline moved the A frame up into the middle. This then “might” have been to minimize this cantilevered effect. The header is more of a beam then acting like a full length beam. Cutting a hole in the middle of a beam is not as bad as cutting a hole in the bottom edge of it that has high torsional forces going on with a small lower flanged header to stop the buckle.

See here on Larrys left side. The string tells all. That end of the camper is pressing down on the I beam wanting to twist the A frame and buckle the middle of the header. The right side is the same too.


Larry’s right side.


If we had a trailer frame designer on the forum it would help as they deal with this every day for a living. I know I’m not one, but figuring out why machines break I do dabble with so this has really peaked my interest to make sure I myself do not create a problem on any of my TT’s.

Hopefully some of this will spark others and possibly a frame engineer following along silently in the back ground. I really hope Lippert can assist, but if they do not, then trailer frame shops will do the repair. There is nothing here that cannot be fixed.

Now to my fiddling. My first problem was finding a piece of 4” channel with the right web thickness. No have. But I did have a piece of 3” channel with 0.180 thick web. This would at least get me a rough feel of how much twist can occur in a channel shape. It twisted more then I had thought. For this shape, a thicker web will help the twisting resistance., Width also adds resistance. The 2004 and older models using 5” channel, 0.200 thick webs have greater resistance to twisting on top of more load carrying rating. Not that 4” channel will not work, but the older A frame was stronger. Do not know if on the final Sunline fix that GoodoleBob, KathyH and Eman have has a thicker channel.

If either of you can measure that it will be helpful. HenryJ yours is the older model and we can compare to it if you have a set of calipers. Rick’s and Larry’s may or may not be different.

Since I did not have these shots on the 2005 and forward model, I used my 2004 T2499 to show the point I was trying to figure out if it means anything. This is where I see forces acting in certain directions that at least add up to how some of this “might” bend things.


The WD adds a lot of point load in the chain snap up area. When you are towing straight, both left and right WD bars have equal loading. When you have a high back flex of the WD hitch, like coming off a high up set of RR tracks or a high up driveway as long as you are straight, both sides get more load equally. While the loads go up this back flex may not be as bad as a turn.

On the back flex of the hitch, the WD bar loads goes up high, but then the back of the truck lifts too. So it then takes some of the load off and finds a new equilibrium. This is for sure is a high loading condition and it too may break the header if the tongue weight and the truck bed weight was high enough. Point is, the loading in the A frame is equal if straight. And if a turn occurs while back flexed, well that one side of the TT A frame really gets jolt of load.

I'm not saying that a high WD hitch back flex will not break the header right in the middle this may be a 2nd cause. If the header is weak enough, if you push down on the A frame even equally on both sides, the frame I beam rails can still twist the header pivoting on the A frame and buckle it in the middle. If the forces are high enough, this "might" happen.

Now to the side loading going around a turn. First off lets say the T2499 was loaded to have a 1,000# tongue weight using 1,000# WD bars. Each bar can hold up 1,000#. When the TT and TV is straight each bar is only lifting ½ the weight. So they may only have 500 to 600# on them.

There is also extra load that the WD bar works on and that is the weight inside the TV aft of the rear axle. If there is 200 to 300# of gear in the back of the TV aft of the axle, well to the WD hitch, it has to lift that up along with the TT tongue. 2, 1,000# bars will lift 1,300# of weight going straight. And again when straight each side takes ½ the load.

Until a turn with a slight angle to the ground or road.
See this turn. This is by far not a jackknife. It is only 50 degrees.


Here is looking at the truck. I’m sure we have all made a turn like this just driving across town pulling out of a gas station with the TT on the back.


Now see the hitch

The outside WD is holding up the entire TT. The inside turn WD bar is doing nothing to hold up the TT. I rattled it with my foot to prove this. Now that 1,300# of WD force is all on one side of the TT frame. It is pushing down on the 1 A frame rail only and that high force is delivering a twisting action in the A frame along with only 1 side of the A frame holding up the entire TT. This is with only a 1,000# tongue. A 1,200# tongue or 400 # of gear in the truck bed create large loads in these cases.

One may think well how much does stuff weigh there is no way we have that much weight in the truck?. Well stuff adds up. See here for 250.8# worth of camping stuff that use to ride in my K2500 Suburban in the back.


And lastly the WD frame twisting.
See here for a WD snap up bracket. It hangs on the top of the frame. Even if you have the Equal-I-zer brand hitch it too has some of this same effect. The chain pulling on the WD bar hangs off the one side. This puts both a downward load on the frame and a level of twisting motion.




So when during that turn, we get a high downward load in the frame and some twist. The A frame twists until it finds something to try and stop the twist. In this case the frame header and the ball coupler. Since the snap up is closer to the header, the header gets more of the twisting.

See here for the 3” channel twist test. I was only pulling about 75# on that 3 foot handle or 225 ft lb of torque. On a snap where the chain is 1 ½” away on say 1,300# of force that is 163 ft # of torque. So by the numbers even though this looks bad, that is not a lot of torque for what this should be able to hold up. But the I beam twisting around the A frame is hugh.

The test. A fixed end on one end, a wrench 22 inches away and a square to see vertical


Now with no load the square is vertical


Now with 225 ft lb of torque


The twist looks bad and is. But putting 163 or 225 ft lb of torque in the Channel held by the header, should not affect this that much. So I sort of talked my way out of this being a smoking gun.

Bink68's fix was to adde the 1 x 2 tube. Well when both I beams are pressing down, the 1 x 2 tube keeps the middle from compressing and twisting. I have not figuired out if this is the final fix and it sure will not fix Larry's, However Bink reports an improvement in WD loading. So we may be getting 1 step closer to what the actual cause is.

In summary here are my thoughts on this.

The T2499 loads tongue heavy. That floor plan just does. 900 to 1200# is not unheard of especially if fresh water is carried.

Any weight in the truck bed Aft of the axle can add to the WD bar force.

When a turn is encountered the 1 side of the A frame is holding up the entire TT while also having high downward loads of the WD effect on it. With the way the header is built and the loads involved holding up the TT, 1 A frame rail can’t take it.

The main I beam frame rail has to take the load and it presses down on the main header impacting both a large downward force in the header and a large torsion load pivoting on the A frame trying to bend up the main header in the middle.

The header might be able to handle the load in a pure vertical loading but the lower flange being so small allows the header to buckle.

When you throw in the dynamic loading of towing down the road the shock impact of bumps increases the loading even more.

When the header buckling actions start, it starts ripping apart the joint where the A frame goes thru the header.

After a few of these cycles this, the header starts failing and then it is down hill from there.

There are still a few holes in my thought process yet to be ironed out, but this was what I “think” I seeing going on as of right now until new info comes in. I’m open to any Sunline Club member questioning anything as the more we talk the more clear this comes. And being open minded, it is easy to come to a wrong conclusion.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:00 AM   #109
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Nice summary...agree.
Lippert has performed one fix already, at Stoltzfus, so apparently they have a fix. Would be nice if they'd just say what it is.
There is another thing Sunline eliminated in the frame that no one has mentioned. (which is not part of this failure, but is disturbing) JohnB - If you look at your 2499 where the A frame connects to the I Beam frame you will see a triangular piece welded under that intersection. That piece was eliminated.

Notice that there is no piece under this joint.
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:43 AM   #110
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JohnB:

Yes, your analysis makes a lot of sense. The damage really seems to hinge on the header being unable to withstand the combined torsional forces of both the main and A frames in anything other than a level road, mild turn scenario. All due to saving a few cents to use a 12 gauge instead of a 10 gauge piece of header steel.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:05 AM   #111
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If you've been following this thread closely, my frame is the one that was fixed in the parking lot at Stoltzfus by the factory welding team.

That second bend occured when traveling for a short vacation and I just happened to be going in the general direction of Stoltzfus. I rerouted to their site and they were able to get Lippert to reply and fix the problem. I'm grateful for their help on this.

At that point, I only knew of one other 2499 that had the problem (someone in Maryland) and the four dealers I contacted about the fracture hadn't ever seen it. I don't know the engineering (if anything beyond experience in repairing frames) that is behind the fix - I just know that, for now, it is working.

What was missing in this situation is that Sunline is not there to collect the number of problems that have occured on these units. Without that central tabulation of the data, it's doubtful that the "right" people have been made aware of the problem.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:25 PM   #112
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It's good that Stoltzfus supported you and took care of your problem! Says a lot about the quality of their dealership.

Now that the problem has been dropped in Lipperts lap it remains to be seen how long it will take for their engineers to review the problem. Hopefully, they will give us an answer quickly as the camping season certainly is not getting any longer!
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:37 PM   #113
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Hi Guys,

Well, not a lot to post about. I spoke to Terry(shop mgr) at Stuffys, and heres' what he told me:

He spoke to the Denver, PA Lippert plant and their stance is : "WE BUILT THE FRAME TO SUNLINE SPECS, SO THEREFORE WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE" He is still waiting for a return call from the Indiana HDQTS.

Here is what a friend of mine did when he heard about & saw our pics:

Notification of Case Change (All times are GMT -500)


Project: NHTSA Hotline Center
Case: frame bending on Sunline campers
Case Number: 19172

Date: 07/17/2008 Time: 08:33:29
Creation Date: 07/16/2008 Creation Time: 21:19:06

Description:
Entered on 07/16/2008 at 21:19:06 by odiwebuser@www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov:
FULL NAME: richard turner
EMAIL : sparky1@linkabit.com
SUBJECT : frame bending on Sunline campers

-----
WEB USER COMMENTS:
a friend owns a 2005 sunline travel trailer---she' showed me her bent cross member on her frame---she is on Sunline club website---there are lots of pictures of broken welds and bent framing-2005-2007 models--she said NO ONE has reported this---well i am---they are very dangerous---please check into this---
thanks richard turner


OK, now I have a question, since I have a trailer builder (car & equiptment) at my access, I am seriously considering having him put on a totally new "5" inch A-frame along with the stronger header. I also plan to ask him to do the lift on Sunny. IF I'm gonna lose my summer vacation, I mght as well make it really worth while. Now, I just need your opinions about this upgrade.

Thanks,
Kitty

PS: Sunny looks sad, not propane tanks or cover, snap up brackets off.


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Old 07-17-2008, 06:08 PM   #114
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Hi Kitty,

Long time since we last had contact. I'm so sorry to hear of all the disappointment you've endured because of this frame fiasco. Listen Kitty, I may not be the voice of engineering, but I have good common sence. I say that for someone who loves their Sunline as much as you have always done, the chance to get a professional frame builder under that rig for a serious and corrective upgrade is an opportunity I would not past up. Your sunny is a special one indeed with the unique options you had built into it on original order. It is a shame to let it sit unused while waiting for the responsible parties to be identified and brought forward for corrective action. That could take a very long time and lead to frustration of the sort you don't deserve at all. Go get your frame builder to fix that beauty Kitty and put this lousy situation behind you. Wishing you lots of luck.

Best Regards

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Old 07-17-2008, 06:28 PM   #115
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Hi Bob,
So darn good to see you posting again. I just ran across you profile the other day and wondered what had happened to you. Sorry to hear you were under the weather, but hopefully now you can get out some and enjoy your Sunline.

I AM really leaning towards the totally NEW tongue & crossmember,as long as he says he can/will do it. I don't have much hope in Lippert help.

Thanks for the input,

Kitty
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Old 07-17-2008, 07:51 PM   #116
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After seeing that the late Sunline 2499's have the A frame penetrating the center of the header and having no problems, I think you would be wasting your money to do what you propose.

The fact that the late Sunlines still have 4" A frames and have no problems should be proof that this is adequate. The only thing proven to be inadequate is the frame header and the only thing inadequate about it is the lower support (there is none). As far as I'm concerned, if I don't get help from Lippert, I'm going to have angle iron welded across the front of the header unitizing the main, A frame and header. I'm quite sure that this will be more than adequate.
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:33 PM   #117
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Kitty I agree with Rick have your frame reinforced and forget about it.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:00 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweety
Nice summary...agree.
Lippert has performed one fix already, at Stoltzfus, so apparently they have a fix. Would be nice if they'd just say what it is.
There is another thing Sunline eliminated in the frame that no one has mentioned. (which is not part of this failure, but is disturbing) JohnB - If you look at your 2499 where the A frame connects to the I Beam frame you will see a triangular piece welded under that intersection. That piece was eliminated.

Notice that there is no piece under this joint.
Tweety or Mr. Tweety

I'm am at a campground for a next few days and only have this pic on my computer.



Is this the small triangle plate on the bottom you are refering to? Yes this does exist on the 2004's and does not on the 2005's. Now to why???

John
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Old 07-18-2008, 06:08 AM   #119
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Yes, John that's the piece...(Pam here, but Steve noticed that missing triangular piece) Seems like another cost cutting measure. When we get our reinforcing done we'll probably have that added. Without it there's not much connecting the A frame to the I beam. Kitty, it might be nice to have your frame builder's opinion on that as well.
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:03 PM   #120
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One Frame Fix

My brother checked out my trailer this morning and this is his free, no obligation, no liability, YMMV assessment.

The front end of the 2499 is strong enough to tow in a straight line. It is being stressed by flexing A-frame as the wd bars load and unload during various transitions especially in turns and in backing up. In other words, the tighter you turn it and the bigger the bump you're backing over--and this includes just about any driveway, the bigger the stress. Any dip steep enough to drag the skid bars is also creating twisting even if moving in a straight line.

For my slightly bent 2499 we are going to reinforce the A-frame on both sides of the header. The first is at least 3" channel, laid on its side with the legs pointing down welded across the A-frame and welded to the I- beam main frame. It is not necessary to weld to the header and could be just far enough back to give the welder room to work. Heavy angle iron could work here too, but in theory the channel is better.

The second reinforcement is a 4" channel welded vertically between the A-frame legs where the wd brackets are located. In my case, Equal-i-zer, I have just enough room between the battery supports and the L-brackets to place this channel. This channel should have the top and bottom flanges cut off to create a "tongue" that will give an optimal fit with the existing A-frame channel.

A good welder will know how to do all this and not overheat the metal. He said the open gaps where the A-frame passes through the header are probably deliberate to avoid over welding and over heating such a small area of the header and these should not be filled in.

Those with badly bent and drooping headers will likely need a frame shop before welding in these supports.

We have a wedding on Sunday and lots of relatives and grandchildren to visit with over the next week so it'll be a couple of days before I get online again to see any reaction or respond to questions.

Henry
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