Bent front frame cross-member on '07 Solaris T-2499

[kanyonkitty]

I plan to contact Lee, at Stoltzfus tomorrow, he is off on fridays. I am hoping that if they haven't dealt with this problem, Lee might get them to look at this site/pictures and come up with something.


According to Chuck Bell at Lippert this "am", Lippert had no engineering input into the failing frame design. Sunline designed it, brought it to them and said build it this way. I AM waiting for a return call, and I WILL be their worst nightmare until I get a call back. They design & build trailer frames, so they "should ?" be able to figure out a fix for this problem.

Also, a little more about my mess. Last July when I had a wheel bearing burn up, Sunny was loaded onto a flat bed and chained down and towed to Adventure RV for repairs. Sometime after this incident, I did notice a "slight" forward bow to my crossmember and "slight" upward bow on the rear battery rail. I assumed (wrong thing to do) the bows had come from the tow guy chaining Sunny down. Remember he pinched a wire against the chassis with the tiedown chain and blew up the battery . So, apparently, my crossmember starting to bow began last July or earlier, and apparently was not the tow truck drivers fault.

[kathyh]

Here is the info from our 2007 T2499 (no damage). It was made in Oct 2006.

It has a 6-1/8" I Beam with 4" A Frame. The beam (measured without calipers) is about 1/8" thick (10 gauge). The top flange is 1-11/16" wide and the bottom flange is 1-9/16" wide.

On the inside of the I beam where the 4" A frame cuts through there is
1-3/16" above the A frame and 15/16" below the A Frame.

The added weld is 2-7/8" x 6" x 1/4" thick.

1st pix shows the weld where A frame cuts through I beam and second picture shows the back side of where the A frame cuts through I beam.


KathyH

[Sunline Fan]

Kathy,

I am not surprised that your coach doesn't have any damage, and I suspect it probably won't. Your's is the highest production 2499 built that I know of, which I would think means you have the newest 2499 frame of the group.

Your coach was built 68 coaches after Pat & Cindy's.

So let's do some simple math here. I currently have 17 identified '07 2499's and 9 unidentified. The unidentifieds are only from units for sale, I haven't added anyone from this club. So that makes a total of 26 '07 2499's I "have".

So, when I "have" 147 identified coaches total for '07, with a grand total of 266 coaches, that's roughly 5.9346% of the total '07 production, assuming my speculation is correct as to the total number produced. Using a simple mathematic proportion (and I know it should be weighted since the 2499 was way more popular than the Advancer 20), this would mean:

26/266 = x/2477 Therefore, x should equal 242.1128. I'd safely say that Sunline built around 242 T-2499's in the 2007 model year, if not more. If I were working at Sunline and crunching these numbers, I would sure want to pull the plug ASAP. With the potential cost of repairing (if they're lucky) 100 of these units, plus the liability if someone got in an accident from this, that could bring a company down quick.

Not to mention Henry pointed out how Sunline obviously knew about the problem since they kept making changes to the frames over the years. I've got 27 total for '06, so there's probably better odds for that model year. Add in 2005 also, and that's just more fuel to the fire. With being a small business like they were, Sunline I know couldn't handle flat-bedding 500+ coaches back to the factory to have the frames repaired.

Jon

[henryj]

Thanks Kathy and Jon. I'm starting to get a much clearer picture now of what might have gone on at Sunline.

Pat, I missed that thick bottom flange in your photo. Can you please confirm whether you also have 1 9/16" like Kathy and whether you have the heavier gauge header as well. If not, Sunline made this a separate change which is also very interesting. The bottom flange in mine is only 5/8" and the top flange 1 15/16", call it 2" and it's only 12 gauge as well.

Larry, I missed whether you posted the flange widths. I'll check the earlier posts, but please come back with those measurements if we don't have them already.

Kathy, given Pat's 60,000 mi. with a heavily loaded coach, I think you can start breathing a little easier about now I'm beginning to think that Sunline did indeed discover the problem and finally stumbled onto the solution. Unfortunately this is a bottom up solution and there will be no possible retrofit. We still need to look for a way to keep the A-frame from flexing. I think I'm going to start calling it a V-frame because that's a better description.

Henry

[kathyh]

Thanks Henry. We will still keep a keen eye on the frame though just in case.

KathyH

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by kanyonkitty

Just me again

I have also pondered not using my weight distributing hitch once (if) Sunny gets fixed, and just use two friction sway controls. I think my truck is heavy enuff to do that, but I KNOW it IS NOT the safe way to do things.

Sorry to ramble, just upset,

Kitty

Kitty I feel your pain and others too. I will add my 2 cents about your statement above about not using WD. Even on yours and my F350, I would not recommend towing a TT down the road with our kind of tongue weights with no WD. Even with your water tanks drained. Here is where I’m coming frorm on this.

First look here at the rating sticker off my F350 receiver. It was because of that sticker that I changed out my F350 SRW drive truck receiver. Not because the truck could not handle the weight. See it says Weight Carrying 500#. That means that is all the dead load weight the receiver is rated for with no WD engaged. It also states the max pull rating is 5,000#. You will trip both limits. While towing without WD engaged would help the existing TT frame header in it’s present day situation, the truck receiver now has issues.


And once we get past the receiver there is the lack of WD on the front end of the F350. It will get soggier in the truck front axle. The steering geometry wears different, the towing stability is different and hard braking is different, then there is the sway controls. The DC is light years ahead of the friction sway bar in effectiveness and you already have it.

My new Tow Beast receiver I added on the F350 was for the T310SR, heaver weight carrying ability, and it could handle my T2499 with no WD, but I myself would not tow down the high way that way due to the other issues. Your truck now tows your trailer very well in all aspects, I know, I used the T2499 this July 4th going back to NY with it for the holiday. Now I know how you must feel towing yours. It’s nice.



We need to help you get your TT all fixed up and then use the hitch the way it is suppose to and put this chapter behind us.

Hope this helps

John

[JohnB]

Hi Folks

Gee, this has been an active day. It is great to see everyone come together here. That Sunline spirit lives on even though we have a thunder cloud looming over a few of us.

And more good news is, more info is coming and this helps greatly. I can now see different forces acting in different directions from the breaks/bends and cracks and the evolution of the changes Sunline made. Each bend, crack and lack of tells a story. We need a few more stories yet to help put together the cause. And we need to know where it is not. Tweety’s frame does not have a lot of difference yet we have no reports, yet, of a problem on their model. Something is different. I saw Pam put a post up on frame issues in the Community section. This will help to define where else it is or is not.

So far all who have posted to date with the 1st and 2nd generation 2005 T2499 newer frame style have a level of bending. KathyH with the latest style and it may be like Emans’ after we get confirmation on the lower and upper flange sizes and thickness. And Pat and Cindy are out test case. BUT theirs is also different.

Pat, I thought you had 2 angle iron members with end pieces welded on the top of the A frame from the beginning for your batteries. They can act as tension and compression tie members if they are welded to the A frame. How thick and what leg size are those angles? And yes please confirm the frame header size.

KathyH, those 2 pics you had, can you give us a link with higher resolution/size so I can zoom in on them? There are areas that are welded and not welded and it could be on purpose as welding can at times bring along weak points and part of the fix may have been to “not” weld that extra support plate to the lower flange.

I’m out of time tonight but I will put together a picture post with arrows on what I see so far in which direction the forces may have came in to cause those breaks. The new pics from today’s replies adds a lot.

Please keep the discussion going and anyone else with a T2499 of any year please post any bends or lack of bends. I know my 2004 model had a heavy tongue, 1,200# when it was loaded for allmost all of it’s towing life and next Wednesday when I’m home I will investigate and report back with pics.

I’m not a TT frame expert by any stretch, but it is clear in my mind that the frame header is indeed a structural member IMHO. And that is all this is, an opinion. With out the header the entire A frame will tear off the TT. The header beam strength ( in the 6” web direction) has to be high enough to support the TT dead weight on it, the imposed WD loads into the main frame rails and shock loads from towing down a highway and back country roads. The header also has to have enough rigidity ( in the upper and lower leg direction) to not buckle under loads that come at it in all directions and the A frame has to penetrate thru it and not compromise either beam support strength or buckling resistance. Each evolution Sunline did is adding up to address these factors.

We need more data on the causes before a fix is considered to be complete. I hope Lippert comes thru to help here with at least a design fix and ideally an answer to why what is there will fail and how. If they where indeed in a subcontractor manufacturing role with no design intent, the failiure responsibly generally ends up with the firm who designed it and incorporated into there system if the frame was made to spec.

For me the jury is still on the exact cause or multiple causes of failure and until the cause is known, there is no “fix”.

John

[kanyonkitty]

Thanks for the kind words JohnB. I wrote about not using the WD setup out of worry/fustration. There is NO WAY in the world that I would actually tow without my complete hitch setup.

Looks like I'll be calling Chuck Bell again on monday, HAHA they will get tired of me calling them. I'll also try to catch up with Lee at 9 when he arrives at work (which is only about 7 hours from now)

I just can't sleep tonight

Kitty

[kathyh]

JohhB - Here are my 2 pix in higher resolution.


The extra plate is welded to the top flange, to the A frame, and to the 6" portion of the I beam. It is not welded to the bottom flange; in fact there is a little space between the plate and the bottom flange.




KathyH[/i]

[Hematite]

Originally Posted by bink68

Just for the record. My frame has a 3/4" bottom flange and the top is right about 2".

In Tweety's pictures, notice that the bottom flange is welded to the "A" frame and that the flange bends up in that area - that's what I noticed on my cross member that I thought was a little odd before it bent. I can't be sure but I think the "up" bend got a little greater over time.

I think that this IS a very significant observation. It seems the lack of support below the crosspiece is critical but also the lack of support above may contribute to the problem. Note that in the later improved versions, there is support from a large flange below, almost like what an addition of an angle iron support would provide, but there is that upright welded piece. I would think that the way it is attached that, among other things, it would provide additional vertical support. Is it possible that the upper flange and 12 gauge sheet metal aren't carrying the vertical A frame forces well enough and contributing to the problem? That MAY be another reason for the vertical bar. It will be interesting to see what an engineers take is on this problem.

Kitty, like you I was pretty upset about this. The problem IS fixable, though, and at this point I'm just resigned to finding and applying the fix. I believe that with all the support we're getting from other Sunline owners and hopefully some engineering expertise and support from Lippert Components that we will very successfully overcome this problem.

PS I just looked back and, thanks to Henry, I see in a photo of Larrys frame that he has the upright bar but the frame still broke. Apparently, Sunline tried the upright bar first before changing the crosspiece to put more steel under the A frame.

[henryj]

I found Clark's post of flange sizes so that pretty much completes the big picture for me. There are some small holes left and we still need a fix, but here's a blow by blow account of what happened. Thanks to JohnB, Bink68, and Larry for getting us started and thanks to Pat, Kathy and Jon for filling in the final pieces. This is my summary of the facts gleaned from this long thread.

1. There have not been any problems on 04 and earlier 2499s. For 05, Sunline strengthened the main frame to a 6" I-frame. At the same time, inexplicably, they dummied down the A-frame to 4" from 5" and the front cross member or header from 10 gauge to 12. They might have gotten away with one or the other, but the two together were a disastrous combination.

This frame was used through the entire 05 and 06 model run. Failures were not instantaneous; Kitty's is perhaps the best example we have here of that. And my 05 sat on a dealer's lot for 1 1/2 years before I bought it as well. But sometime in the 06 model run Sunline started seeing failures and no doubt repaired a number of customers' frames. I sure would like to hear from a couple of those people or someone who worked at Sunline at that time.

2. By the beginning of the 07 model run--early spring 06--Sunline knew they had a big problem. They attempted to address this by welding a 2" X 6" piece of steel against each leg of the A-frame behind the header, apparently to stiffen the A-frame and reduce its flex. Larry has an early 07 and, as shown by his photos, this fix was completely ineffective. Larry's frame only failed after 10,000 mi., but Sunline found out long before that this fix was not the one as they must have repaired some of these early 07s as well.

3. By the time Pat's 07 was built, Sunline appears to have been panicking and abandoned the piecemeal fix throwing what is probably a completely over-engineered, over-kill solution onto the frame. The end result was a 10 gauge cross member again, with a 1 9/16" bottom flange and the A-frame passed through the center of the cross member to avoid cutting it right at the bottom flange. They also retained the first fix, the 2" X 6" piece of steel, but on not sleeping on it overnight, I doubt that this added anything extra. The other three changes, however, were huge and even one of those, like 10 gauge steel, might have been enough. Just out of curiosity, I'd like to know what Lippert's role was in all this. They surely knew what Sunline was dealing with and it is inconceivable to me that they would not get involved--maybe that's where the final fix came from.

4. Sunline was a small company on the RV stage, but provided good work for good people and a reasonable return, at least for the original owners. I agree with Jon that these frames would have bankrupted them. It's quite possible shrewd new owners saw it coming and took their money and ran. Sad that this all happened over a 12 gauge piece of steel that was probably one of the least expensive items in the trailer.

5. Owners of 04 and earlier 2499s, or any other Sunline coach that we know of, have not had this frame problem. All 05 to early 07 2499s have a major problem whether they are already bent or not and all need to be strengthened. Check the photos and look under the front of the trailer to see which frame you have.

6. Sunline used this same frame design on other models, like Pam and Steve's 06 2753--quite possibly any 7000 lb. GVW trailer (2499, 2553, 2570, 2753). We are not aware that any of these lighter TW coaches have had problems, but I would caution to not overload and frequently check the battery supports and front header for any sign of bending. It would be helpful to know if other late 07s, like the 2753, also got the frame fix seen in Pat's and Kathy's 2499s as that would indicate that Sunline saw some problems here as well.

Henry

[Bobo]

Been off line for awhile and I come back to find this beauty of a problem. I checked my 2006 T-2499 and found my header just starting to bow. No cracked welds or battery crossmember warpage. If Lippert does not offer a solution soon, I will pay to have my mechanic to reenforce the crossmember and shore up the A frame. We only have about a thousand miles on the coach and plan on keeping it for a long time. It is an investment we made into our lives and the best thing that has ever happened to us in our new marriage.

Best of luck to all of us and hope Lippert comes through.

Bobo

[precorguy]

WOW -- i can't believe it --- this is a very bad situation an my heart goes out to anyone in this position.

i just finished - couple of weekends ago - painting the frame --- i didn't notice anything unusual - and i also had the batteries off for painting and nothing strange

we have a 07 2553 and hope that we are not going to experience the same issues --- we have towed to florida twice and all over ontario, ohio, michigan & new york state - i would say we are getting close to the 10,000 mile mark now or surpassing this coming summer trip anyway

next time the trailer is home i am going to use these pics to double check the frame for abnormalities - hopefully we are good.

will be watching this post closely for what the outcome is!

[clarkldc]

Hi Folks,

This is the third time I tried to post this update explaining the first 10,000 miles I used our 2499. I'll retype the saga.

My wife and I started going to RV shows several years ago trying to find the right TT for us to buy just before I would retire. We saw the 2499 at the first show and fell in love with it. It seemed like the perfect floorplan, size, and weight for us. Each subsequent year we would return to the RV shows, but we could not find anything we liked more than the 2499. Then, when we found out in January 2007 that Sunline had gone out of business, we decided to purchase before there were no other 2499's available. We bought ours from Brooks Ramsey RV of White Marsh, Maryland on January 15, 2007. We had no place to store it at that time so the dealer offered to store it on their storage lot until we could find suitable storage at a reasonable price. We picked it up mid-April 2007 and took it on a maiden trip of about 200 miles. No problems except for the long tow vehicle made backing into a small site difficult. Then at the end of May we took it on another trip of about 500 miles. The only problem we encountered was we bottomed out while making a U-turn and slightly bent the skid bar on the right side. Not an uncommon occurance.

Our fall trip was to Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia. While driving to our first campsite on PEI we encountered many rough roads and when I checked the TT at a refuelling stop, I noticed that the batteries had nearly fallen through the battery brackets to the road. The rear bracket was bent upward some and this caused the batteries to drop down out of the front battery bracket, but not all the way to the road. I pushed the rear battery bracket back down and reset the batteries into place. We continued to our campsite and setup that evening. The next day I went to a local hardware store and bought some 1/4" threaded rod, nuts, washers, and lock washers to perform a field repair of the battery box. I drilled four 1/4" holes in each bracket, inserted the treaded rod and fastened the top flanges with the nuts, washers, and lock washers. This kept the brackets spaced properly and tied the rear bracket to the front bracket. Problem solved??? At this point we had about 2,000 miles on the unit. We continued on our trip without experiencing any further difficulties. When we arrived back home we cleaned the sunny up, winterized it, and put her into storage. She now had about 4,000 mile on her.

Mid-April 2008 we bought the unit back home to prepare it for a trip to Arizona. I made another battery tie-down with a piece of 1"x1"aluminum box channel -- one across the top of the battery boxes and one below the C-channel of the tungue attaching them with threaded rod. While doing this I noticed the header had a small bend near the right side and some of the paint was gone. Had there not been any rust I probably would not have noticed this bend. This must have been the Omen of things to come, but we started on our trip as scheduled. While trying to level the trailer at a campsite in central Arizona I notice that the header now is cracked and the other side shows some bending. Both tails of the header outside of the tongue frame were starting to sag at the outer end, thus placing more twisting forces on the tongue C-channel and the thin header C-channel between the tongue C-channels. We contemplate whether or not to have the repair made while we were on the road and opted to continue with the trip and get it repaired when we returned home. At this point we had about 7,000 miles on the TT.

By the time we got home we had about 10,000 miles on the unit and from my pictures you can see the extent of the damage now. I towed it to a local welding shop that works on mobile home frames and some RVs to get an estimate for the repair. The owner loked at it and gave me a verbal estimate of $1,000 (about an 8 hour job). He said that the header was way to thin and he would have to cut it out and replace it with much heavier C-channel. He cautioned me that the underbelly plastic water barrier was extremely flamable and was afraid the welding could catch it on fire. I decided to take it to another shop for a second opinion, as the first guy seemed like hed did not want to work on it and he gave me only a verbal estimate. This second shop did body repair on autos and RVs. He also had the means to straighten and align the frame. His estimate was for $1,441 to repair/reinforce/replace the header, and replace/reinforce the battery box. He was planing to straighten the header to its original position and reinforce it by welding a heavier 6" C-channel to the front face of the header and weld it to the tongue A-frame as well. He would replace the battery brackets with 2"x2" angle and weld a diamond plate steel floor in the box. This plate was to be welded to the brackets and to the tongue C-channel lower flange to stiffen this area and make a real battery tray. Then I returned the unit to the storage yard and decided to check the web to see if others have had similar problems with this frame on the 2499. So I joined the Open Roads Forum on RV.NET website and the Sunlineclub Forum.

And NOW you have the 10,000 mile long story of our first 10,000 miles using our Sunline Solaris T-2499. Wheeew!! What a tale-- probably more than you ever wanted to know.

PS: I may get to the RV storage lot tomorrow to measure the thickness of the header using a micrometer. I'll report my findings. By the By, we have no warranty on this trailer what-so-ever, only the appliance and sub-system warranties. I am realllllly depressed by this situation!