Bent front frame cross-member on '07 Solaris T-2499

[PTHutch]

Originally Posted by henryj

... This is mine complete with factory plywood painted black and all. The box is bolted to the plywood and the tie down webbing goes right around the steel and through two tabs screwed to the bottom of the plywood. Maybe they ran out of plywood from time to time or didn't use it when the plywood guy called in sick.


Henry

Henry,

The plywood may have been installed by your dealer, not the factory.
I know the plywood under my battery box was installed by the dealer, not the factory.

Hutch

[henryj]

Sorry John and others, please disregard my last post about the dimples. They are indeed made by a hammer. This morning in better light I noticed that they are welded in from the front. There are so many gaps that look like they should have been welded it is easy to get confused.

Hutch, you could be right of course. All I know is the plywood and paint were well weathered when I bought the trailer and I know the battery only goes on prior to delivery. If the dealer did it, I'll have to give him some grudging credit

Henry

[Mooney]

This thread stinks for everyone....

One thing I am surprised nobody has mentioned is that EVERY SINGLE DAMAGED HEADER has the battery disconnect drilled through the middle of the flanges, and it seems that EVERY header that has bent has done so at or near the disconnect.

The '04 and earlier models did not offer the disconnect, if I remember my brochures correctly, and they started offering them on the '05s as a new feature.

There's a pretty serious rule about drilling into frames of vehicles, such as: don't do it unless you reinforce it (that's why the "conventional" sway bars use such a thick piece of metal and heavy screws to hold it in). I have actually always been a bit surprised that they chose to drill the metal right in the middle of your frames (I don't have a disconnect on our entry level coach). I am more surprised (as a truck driver) to see that there is no reinforcement behind it.

I hope Lippert stands behind their product and at least offers free design sheets or blueprints of how the fix can be made, but unfortunately I think a frame engineer would see the same thing I do, a weak point added by the coach manufacturer.

I will be down at the local dealer this Thursday and Friday to prep my fridge and pick up our coach, and will look at the 2499 they have in stock to see if it shows signs of this (and warn them if it does) and check our '05 2380 to see if it's bending at all (pretty light hitch weight though...)

[kanyonkitty]

OK, now that I have crawled out from under Sunny again. The top flange on the cross member is 1&7/8 inch, the bottom flange is a mere 1/2 inch(measured from the inside). I strng a rope across the back edge of the bottom flange and measured a 3inch forward bow on the cross member. I have a few pics :










[/img]

[kanyonkitty]

Just me again. You guys are gonna get tired of seeing blue typing OK, I have a little new info.

Today I received an email from good ole' Lee at Stoltzfus RV, telling me to call him as my trailer was a throw away. So, I call him to hear the bad news. He got me good with that email. Anyway, here's whats happening:

Lee mentioned the frame bending isssue to Terry the shop boss. Terry says yeah, we have already had to have one fixed. A man on vacation, and Lippert Frames (Denver Plant) sent a man over to Stoltzfus and he welded on additional support. Then Terry & Lee go look at another 2499 that was on the lot for some service, guess what it's frame is beginning to bend.

Terry is going to contact Jason, the plant manager of Lippert in Denver, PA, he is also going to call the main plant to see HOW they are going to deal with these repairs. Terry said it didn't matter if Sunline designed the frame, Lippert is responsible for putting safe frames on the road.

So, I am once again waiting to hear more news. Oh, yeah Terry said he did not know who Chuck Bell was at the Denver plant.

I'll keep you posted as I hear anything,

Kitty

[Poppy & Nana]

Well our 07 2499 (mfgd 6/06) has a bow (about 2") in the header but it does not look like any other damage.....hopefully Leo and I can get out there and measure & take photos later this week.....we have a trip planned for the end of the month and MUST use the TT.......no other choice but to take it!This is very depressing to say the least.....hopefully Lee/Sholfuz (sp) can get some answers and we can fix out TT's and get back to happy lives!!!!!

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Mooney

This thread stinks for everyone....

One thing I am surprised nobody has mentioned is that EVERY SINGLE DAMAGED HEADER has the battery disconnect drilled through the middle of the flanges, and it seems that EVERY header that has bent has done so at or near the disconnect.

The '04 and earlier models did not offer the disconnect, if I remember my brochures correctly, and they started offering them on the '05s as a new feature.

There's a pretty serious rule about drilling into frames of vehicles, such as: don't do it unless you reinforce it (that's why the "conventional" sway bars use such a thick piece of metal and heavy screws to hold it in). I have actually always been a bit surprised that they chose to drill the metal right in the middle of your frames (I don't have a disconnect on our entry level coach). I am more surprised (as a truck driver) to see that there is no reinforcement behind it.

Hi Mooney

Actually in 2004 they had the battery disconnect. I do not know the official “when” it started but both of my 2004 campers have one. One made in Oct 2003 the other May 2004. See here on my 2004, T2499


You have a point about the drilling and we need to keep it in mind as we more comes to light on this. If the header was or is made strong enough holes can be added in proper place to not create issues. Think of the holes in the frame of your truck body for wires to pass thru or in the Sunline main frame for gas line to pass thru.

If the holes are a problem a crack will start or end at that hole.

In this specific case, again your point is valid to keep in mind, as this header is thin and in great question right now. Another detail to keep track of.

Thanks for reminding us to look.

John

[JohnB]

Hi Fellow Campers

The plot now thickens a little bit. On a fact finding mission I have searched 5 other brands of TT’s all in the 7,000# GVWR range. The front header construction used varies a lot by brand. Some use the same concepts as what Sunline did. Rather then doing a lot of words, for tonight I’ll just post the findings.

First ALL 5 brands used a 12 gage (0.105”) thick header like what Sunline has on the 2005 model.

Camper No. 1
This camper is rated at 7,100# GVWR.
Uses 6” tube A frame, could not measure thickness
Uses 6 1/4" nominal C shaped header, 12 gage thick
A frame comes out the header at the bottom/middle
Lower flange is 1 ½”
I beam main frame rails











Camper No. 2
This camper is rated at 7,700# GVWR.
Uses 5”tube A frame, could not measure thickness
Uses 6” nominal Z shaped header, 12 gage thick
A frame comes out the header at the Top
Lower flange is 7/8
I beam main frame rails







Camper No. 3
This camper is rated at 5,790# GVWR.
Uses 4”tube A frame, could not measure thickness
Uses 6” nominal Z shaped header, 12 gage thick
A frame comes out the header at the middle
Lower flange is 7/8
I beam main frame rails




Camper No. 4 (I noted where the welds where and where not and the holes in the header)
This camper is rated at 6,504# GVWR.
Uses 4”tube A frame, 0.105” thick wall
Uses 6” nominal C shaped header, 12 gage thick
A frame comes out the header at the bottom
Lower flange is 7/8
I beam main frame rails














Camper 5 (This is a rear living camper with slide and light weight model, the frame construction is different)
This camper is rated at 6,500 GVWR.
A Frame Uses 4 1/4” x 1 ½ C formed box welded tube, 0.105” thick wall
Uses 4 1/2” nominal formed header, 12 gage thick. Could not see if back was closed like A frame
A frame comes out the header at the middle
Under belly enclosed cannot see inside.












As you can see, TT tongue frame design sort of ranges all over. At this point, this is just more information to ponder on. Sunlines latest design that we know of, is the A Frame penetrates the header in the center, stiffener plate at the header to A frame weld point and wider lower header flange.

More tomorrow

John

[rich2500]

This is awful to see these damaged frames and I feel for all you folks,has anyone with the damaged frame held a straight edge down the sides of their A-frame.

[Tweety]

Leo & Kathy - PLEASE do not tow your trailer before it is repaired.
John B - Since heavy tongue weight seems to be the culprit, it would be interesting to know the tongue weights of the trailers #1-5, to compare that to the tongue structure.

[Bobo]

On my rig. Front header is bowed rearward 3/4 of an inch. Mainly in the area of the cutoff switch. No broken welds or other twisting. Battery box holder has no deflection and came without wood.

Built 9/8/2005 WO# 599265, Vin # 1LC2S206D055376. Using Blue Ox Swaypro with 1,000 # bars.

Sorry, no photos at this time. The 'brain' (DW) is at work and will not see her till Friday.

Bobo

[Hematite]

Originally Posted by rich2500

This is awful to see these damaged frames and I feel for all you folks,has anyone with the damaged frame held a straight edge down the sides of their A-frame.

Yes, I put a level on the A frame and it shows that the bottom of the A frame (C channel) is twisted in slightly. This is consistent with the 2" bending of the header plate (crosspiece).
I also think that the front of the A frame (ball receiver) is lower by about an inch. It now measures 16.5" from the ground. This also seems consistent if the lower A frame (C channel) is bent in.

[henryj]

I'm encouraged by Stoltzfus' response and now their involvement in looking after their customers. Let me see if I got this straight... Lippert makes frames... they send a welder to Stoltzfus to fix a frame... I think they know what's going on.

My brother has been following this thread and he's coming for a visit Thurs. night. Fri. morning we're both going to be lying under my trailer and I'll get his engineer's opinion of what's going on. Whatever the solution, it is going to involve some welding and he did say already to line up a really skilled welder for this job. So for others that are chomping at the bit waiting for a solution checking the yellow pages and asking around for a good welder would be time well spent. Two that I'll be checking out are a heavy truck collision center and a welding shop that fabricates and installs hitches.

Henry

[kanyonkitty]

I haven't heard anything yet from Stoltzfus (I call them Stuffys ) But, as soon as I do I will post it here. Now, late this afternoon my son came over and finally took a look at poor Sunny, lets say that I can't type here what he had to say about the frame quality. He immediately called a friend of his that builds car and other trailers. Gave a brief description of what my frame looked like, and friend asked what frame company was gonna do about it, that if I could get the "specs" for how they proposed to fix this mess he would fix Sunny for me. Then he said, never mind about their specs, since they did a sheet job the first time, he wouldn't trust them, that he'd fix it and it would be strong as a tank. Said he could probably get to it next week, but I would need to tow it about 6 - 7 miles max to his garage. Do I or should I wait if we haven't heard from Stuffys as to how lippert will handle this mess?

Kitty (the BLUE ink person)

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Hematite

Yes, I put a level on the A frame and it shows that the bottom of the A frame (C channel) is twisted in slightly. This is consistent with the 2" bending of the header plate (crosspiece).
I also think that the front of the A frame (ball receiver) is lower by about an inch. It now measures 16.5" from the ground. This also seems consistent if the lower A frame (C channel) is bent in.

Rick and Rich2500

I saw Rich2500's response and then the brain started thinking.... H'mm....Then after 2 hours driving home on the interstate looking at the corn fields go by, the light bulb turned on .

Then Rick posted some of my thoughts....

Rick, we need more info on the A frame twist. I have a "wild" or not so wild, thought process on where the forces are coming from and in what direction to cause the bends we are seeing at least on Kitty’s, Larry’s, Bink’s and yours. Henry’s, h’mm maybe the early stages as his is not bent so far. BUT I need some info to prove or disprove the wild idea.

Using a 4 foot level, straight edge, or a plain string... pull a line down the entire length of the A frame rail on the bottom. One end attached to the frame I beam, then at the header and then at the ball coupler. Need to know where it is bent in relation to it’s length and how much in that horizontal direction.

Then the twist.
Hopefully the TT is on level ground or you will have to get more creative in measuring. Place a level vertical on the 4” width side of the A frames and measure the top/bottom and tell how much twist is off from level. Trying to measure the degree of twist at the ends of the 4" C. Then a little trig and we know the angle.

If I know the top twisted 1/4” out and the bottom 1/4 inward from level etc. I can turn that into an angle. Or use an angle finder. OR lay a 4 foot straight edge over the tongue and a square hanging down if level will not work. Measure the top of bottom. I'm "thinking the top is pulled out and the bottom pushed in, but you will confirm. And tell us where that twist is in relation to the end of the A frame( from the ball)?

Then pull the straight edge down the face of the A frame. This is along the 4" side. Looking if it flexed in towards battery or out away from battery?.

Do both left and right sides of the TT A frame. Take pics too. And take pics of the ball coupler in relation to something straight. If that is bent too, that tells more to the story.

Here is the wild thought yet to be proven.

WD and tongue weight are keys elements in this failure. We have this same 2005 frame on lighter tongue TT's but as of this moment, no one noticed damage. This may change but for now the problem is very load on the 2005's and forward T2499's

In a turn when the TV tips slightly, the one WD bar is holding the entire load. If you have a 1000# tongue that is now a point load at the snap up bracket. If you have any gear in the back of the truck aft of the rear axle, that load goes up even more. Then while turning you hit a bump, now you have a heavy shock load in the A frame at the snap up pulling on the chain putting torque into the channel, plus the weight of the TT pushing down on the header.

The snap up is cantilevered and trying to twist the A frame C channel. Pending how far that twist goes, the bottom of the Channel will push on the battery angle and it will push hard on the bottom of the header. In order for the header to bend inward like yours, the bottom of the Channel at the header had to get closer to the opposite side and was basically squeezed in.

It will resist until something let's go. If the header lower flange deforms in the middle due to the stress pushing inward at the bottom the Channel is then allowed to twist further. Once the C channel twists so far it will hit the yield stress of that channel, it will deform and never come back to normal. The main header will pop in the middle when lower flange lets go. Kittys and yours are really buckled. That heavy buckle changed the left to right distance of the bottom of the C channel in order for it to buckle that far.

If the A frame is permanently twisted, If you measure the top of the C channel at the header left to right and the bottom left to right at the channel, the bottom should be shorter then the top measuring left to right. If the header is still welded to the A frame, then the channel is twisted. But in Kitty’s case there is a tear there. That tear came from a tension pull I do believe. Either the opposite side A frame twisting pulled it apart or the buckled header pulled it apart. Left and right turns change the which side is getting pulled apart.

In order for the battery channel to twist, the bottom of the C channel had to twist and push the battery angle togehter at each end. The only thing stoping the twisting is the resistance of the C channel to torque. The Header is holding on end from twisting and the ball cpupler the other end. The little battery anlge do not offer up much help.

See Kittys




If my wild idea actually has merit, the short section of header outside the A frame holding up the TT also would have to flex since the channel iron is flexed and it is welded to it, it too would be dropping down. Look at that area where it is welded to the channel if the paint is cracked like it has been stressed. It would be at the top where the stress is.

OH and since you have calipers, measure the web thickness of the 4" channel. They make different thickness webs. The thinner web will twist easier.

This may all be out in left field as I can not see the damage upfront and only pics and probing for more info. But putting all the puzzle pieces together we have in this post, some of this has to fit even if it is only part of it.

If my wild theory has merit, then I have some explanations for the rest of the damage and why Binks repair shop did some of what they did. Henry’s is just starting, Kittys and yours are in the mid stages of failure and Bink’s and Larry are all the way gone. Once the header buckles the integrity is lost and now it continues to self destruct as it now can twist that mush easier.

Hope this helps

Thanks

John

Ps Sorry for the windy wording, get me some twisted C channel numbers and some pics and I will put arrows on them and post back so we can all see what all the words are saying. Or not and one theroy bit the dust...

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Tweety

John B - Since heavy tongue weight seems to be the culprit, it would be interesting to know the tongue weights of the trailers #1-5, to compare that to the tongue structure.

Tweety

I will as well as the floor plan. Many had large front pass thru cargo areas whch add tongue weight. Will take me some digging.

[JohnB]

Hi Fellow T2499 Owners

For comparison here is the construction of the 2004 T2499 before the 2005 frame upgrade. This may have also existing on other 7,000# GVWR TT's as well.

The A frame is made from 5” channel with 0.200” web thickness.
The main header is 5 ½” wide (outside) and is 10 gage (0.140”) thick
The main header has a lower flange of 5/8” and an upper flange of 2 7/8” as measured on the inside leg.
The main TT frame is also 5” channel

So the tip that the header changed from 10 gage to 12 gage in 2005 is correct.

Here are some pics. The A frame side shot


The header right side


The header left side


The inside of how the A frame attaches


Channel penetrating the header




While I do like the 2005 I beam, the prior 2004 A frame and header was heavier. Why did they change the A frame? The only thing that makes any sense is to try to make the camper lighter in weight that at least adds up in my mind. OR they just had a frame designer use different methods of construction. And they tried to use a 1 frame fits all until they ended up on the T2499 floor plan that loads tongue forward. Then all the extra beefiness of the past did not exist and issues came as they missed the loading.

Price may not have had anything to do with this. The labor to fab up the 2004 version costs as much as the 2005 version as labor is what costs the most on these types of products.

Hope this helps

John

[Lode]

Let me start by saying I'm very sorry for all those facing this problem. I'm very sad to think of what might have transpired behind the scenes when it first unfolded for Sunline.

I had a chance to read John's post on his theory. Afterwards I looked again at all the pictures from the thread for a few hours.

I follow John's theory as to the reason of the buckling. My only thought is that the buckling and forces that create the deformation seem to be a result of an equal squeeze from both sides inward at the same time, not one side exclusively. I believe if it was one side at a time squeezed by the WD inward that the bends in the cross member and battery holders would be in 2 different spots rather than a failure that seems to always be near center on both as in the pictures provided.

The way I see these forces applied equally to the WD mounts is when you're aligned with tow vehicle and trailer to transition a hill that has a sharp point of ascent, not gradual.(like a place that has a pad that's 12' higher than the access road and 20' to back up and in and a drainage run that's 6" lower than the road) when you drastically change the angle of the trailer in relation to the tow vehicle the travel trailers and tow vehicles weight and/or engine power add even more stress force on the weak points while in the transition.

I do believe it's most likely happening during a slower speed where those stresses are exerted for a longer period of time, like taking care in backing up when you're placing your TT.

Hope that view might help a little.

Take care,
Jason

[Hematite]

Originally Posted by Lode

Let me start by saying I'm very sorry for all those facing this problem. I'm very sad to think of what might have transpired behind the scenes when it first unfolded for Sunline.

I had a chance to read John's post on his theory. Afterwards I looked again at all the pictures from the thread for a few hours.

I follow John's theory as to the reason of the buckling. My only thought is that the buckling and forces that create the deformation seem to be a result of an equal squeeze from both sides inward at the same time, not one side exclusively. I believe if it was one side at a time squeezed by the WD inward that the bends in the cross member and battery holders would be in 2 different spots rather than a failure that seems to always be near center on both as in the pictures provided.

The way I see these forces applied equally to the WD mounts is when you're aligned with tow vehicle and trailer to transition a hill that has a sharp point of ascent, not gradual.(like a place that has a pad that's 12' higher than the access road and 20' to back up and in and a drainage run that's 6" lower than the road) when you drastically change the angle of the trailer in relation to the tow vehicle the travel trailers and tow vehicles weight and/or engine power add even more stress force on the weak points while in the transition.

I do believe it's most likely happening during a slower speed where those stresses are exerted for a longer period of time, like taking care in backing up when you're placing your TT.

Hope that view might help a little.

Take care,
Jason

Well, you just basically described my driveway! The driveway is higher than the road and there is a 4-6 foot low spot for drainage. I actually do believe that when I returned from camping and drove up the driveway that this happened (just a hunch). Initially, the Sunline was backed in and I drove it out to go camping. It dragged both times but not as much the second time because I had readjusted the ball shank.

When I drove up the driveway on return, it dragged on the street so the forces were different than the previous 2 times.

JohnB: I agree with your assessment as well. I'm sure that the I beam main frame also twists under this type of stress situation since it is tied in through the header to the main frame. To prove that, when I noticed the damage, I was feeling around the header/ mainframe area and found a broken off piece of painted weld lying on the lower 1/2" flange. Apparently, this must have broken off when the header yielded but it did come from the mainframe area which means that it receives stress from the header yielding.

I'm all the more convinced that the fix will necessitate a heavy angle iron attached across the entire front of the frame from I beam to I beam and attached, as well, to the A frame and welded along the bottom of the header. This will give the support that the later redesign gave to this area. Additionally I'd like to see some support forward on the A frame.

[Hematite]

JohnB, I'l get on that today and check the straightness of the A frame. The area that the Sunline is not completely level (slight slope for drainage) but I'll use squares and measure across and get pictures. there's no doubt that once the header buckles, there has to be a twist in the rails.