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Old 07-10-2008, 11:43 PM   #41
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emam
Ok, it's too dark to go outside and measure it right now, and I'm too stupid to have thought about that when I was lying on the ground the first time

I've been thinking about this for awhile now, and I'm wondering if there was a bad batch of metal that went out of the frame company? My 2499 is a 2007, made in the late fall of 2006. I know if our frame was bent, I'd be calling that number you posted immediately

I would think if anyone's frame was going to bend, it would be ours. We have the 4 batteries up there, our mountain bike rack with two mountain bikes and I hate to even admit this, but while we were pulling into town last week, I knew we were going to be rearranging everything on the camper, so I wanted to see what our weights were and what weight we had been traveling at for the last year and a half.

We topped off the propane tanks, topped off our fresh water tank, emptied our black and gray tanks and had the camper loaded like we travel 99% of the time.

Dont gasp too bad here, but the Cat Scale told us we've traveled the last 17 months with a camper weighing in at 8380lbs! !

That was the camper by itself on the scale. With the camper hooked to the truck, but only the camper sitting on the scale, it weighed in at 7080lbs. Not sure what that means on tongue weight? I figured one of you engineers could figure that out.

Here is a shot of the front of the A-Frame with the hitch mechanism



This is sitting under the camper looking towards the passenger side where our cables from the batteries run through the frame.


This is the piece I said I didnt see on any of the other pictures? It looks like a little piece of metal was welded as reinforcement?


Here is another angle of that same piece.

I'll measure the frame tomorrow and post the results as soon as I get them. Man hate to hear so many peoples frames are twisted, especially during the summer camping season
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:42 AM   #42
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In addition to the little verticle piece that's welded next to the tongue, what I notice about Pat's is that the tongue passes through the center of the front header. The failed frames all have the tongue passing through at the bottom, with 2" of header at the top and the tongue sitting on that 1/2" bottom flange. I do believe our frame is just like the ones that failed, and will take pictures later so everyone can see a "before" picture.
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:52 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emam
Dont gasp too bad here, but the Cat Scale told us we've traveled the last 17 months with a camper weighing in at 8380lbs! !

That was the camper by itself on the scale. With the camper hooked to the truck, but only the camper sitting on the scale, it weighed in at 7080lbs. Not sure what that means on tongue weight? I figured one of you engineers could figure that out.
Hey Pat,

We can't figure out your exact tongue weight from the 2 weights you posted.

However, this does tell us that 1300 lbs (8380-7080) of your trailer weight is being loaded on your truck.

That also means your tongue weight is a little of 1300 lbs.

Your tongue weight is more than 1300 lbs because when the trailer is hooked up to the truck, the WD bars transfer some of the tongue weight to the trailer wheels. I would guess that some where between 300 - 400 lbs of tongue weight is being transfered to the trailer wheel.

For example, our weights are trailer 8,280 lbs alone; 7,420 hitch to the truck, which has a difference of 860 lbs (compared to your 1,300 lbs).
However, our tongue weight is 1,140 lbs, as weighed at a CAT Scale.
That tells me that when the trailer is hitched 280 lbs (1,140 - 860) of the tongue weight is transferred to the trailer wheels.

To get your tongue weight, what I do is go to a CAT Scale with 3 scales. Have the truck and trailer unhitched. Put the trailer wheels on 1 scale, tongue jack on middle scale, and both truck wheels on other scale. The weight on the middle scale will tell you the tongue weight. Then I hook the trailer up and have the trailer wheels on one scale, truck rear wheels on middle scale and truck front wheels on other scale and take another weighing. This gives me enough weights to do some basic analysis on loading.
Or you could stop by JohnB's house and have him weigh it for you

Hope this helps you understand your weights.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:05 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hematite
I believe that there is a frame warranty on these units. Since Lippert components is still in business, the warranty should still be in place. Does anyone know what is the length of the warranty?

If the warranty is still in effect, a repair should be able to be obtained through a local RV dealer with an approval of Lippert.

If there is no warranty in effect, we will probably have to pursue this directly with Lippert Components.
I couldn't find any specific information on Lippert's frame warranty on their web site.

But here's a link to their web site's Service & Warranty forms:
http://www.lci1.com/service_warranty_documents.htm

Hope this helps.
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:11 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweety
In addition to the little verticle piece that's welded next to the tongue, what I notice about Pat's is that the tongue passes through the center of the front header. The failed frames all have the tongue passing through at the bottom, with 2" of header at the top and the tongue sitting on that 1/2" bottom flange. I do believe our frame is just like the ones that failed, and will take pictures later so everyone can see a "before" picture.
That's an excellent observation! At the same time though, the space above the A frame looks about the same, which makes me think that the crosspiece at some point was made deeper to support the bottom of the A frame. It seems like the problem is lack of support for the bottom of the A frame. The side plate is also a help to strengthen the A frame and crosspiece joint.

Pat, when you have the time, if you could give us measurements of the various aspects of your A frame/ crosspiece we would be very grateful! I'm particularly interested in the thickness of the crossmember on your 2499. I wonder if they went back to a 10 gauge crossmember at some point?
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:16 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PTHutch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hematite
I believe that there is a frame warranty on these units. Since Lippert components is still in business, the warranty should still be in place. Does anyone know what is the length of the warranty?

If the warranty is still in effect, a repair should be able to be obtained through a local RV dealer with an approval of Lippert.

If there is no warranty in effect, we will probably have to pursue this directly with Lippert Components.
I couldn't find any specific information on Lippert's frame warranty on their web site.

But here's a link to their web site's Service & Warranty forms:
http://www.lci1.com/service_warranty_documents.htm

Hope this helps.
Hutch
Hey Hutch,

Thanks for pointing those forms out! They appear to be for dealer use only but I noticed that they show a place to look for a Lippert frame tag. They show just behind the coupler assembly on the inside of the frame. I don't remember seeing a tag there but I'm going to check.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:00 AM   #47
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I just pulled out my "05, '06 and '07 sales brochures and this is what I read:

05 brochure - Heavy duty front frame cross member with extra wide top lip, extruded I-beam frame assures solid attachment of floor at area of critical towing stress

'06 brochure - Heavy duty front frame cross member with extra wide top lip, extruded I-beam frame assures solid attachment of floor at area of critical towing stress. (6"C-channel on trans-Sport, 6" I-beam on non-sides, 10" I-beam on Slaris SR)

'07 brochure - Heavy-duty, extruded I-beam frame featuring extra-wide top lip front cross member for secure floor attachment to better handle towing stress. (6" I-beam on non slide, 10" I-beam on slide models)

SO, reading this, it makes it sound like that cross member is basically to "assure solid attachment of the floor" and basically is not intended to provide any support to the "A" frame ?

I am really upset about all this, my first ever brand new Sunline, after 9 used ones, I have thought that "IF" I had the money I'd go trade it off for an older Sunline. Just seems like I can never catch a break.

I think I am going to call Lippert this morning.

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Old 07-11-2008, 08:39 AM   #48
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Just me again

I just got off the phone with Mr. Chuck Bell, seems like a nice man. He is well aware of the problem. He also stated that they didn't expect it to become so wide spread. Of corse there is the Sunline out of business issue, but he is going to contact the warranty and I think design division and get back to me.
He told me Sunline engineers designed the frame, brought them the plans and said "build it", so he's not sure "IF" the cross member actually provides ANY support to the tongue, or if it's for floor support and electrical box connection.

I told him we needed to know "THE FIX".

When you look at some of the pictures, the way the crossmember is cut out to allow the tongue to pass thru, it really doesn't appear to be supporting the tongue. I know all you guys will explain this crap to me, and help me get thru this mess.

I have also pondered not using my weight distributing hitch once (if) Sunny gets fixed, and just use two friction sway controls. I think my truck is heavy enuff to do that, but I KNOW it IS NOT the safe way to do things.

Sorry to ramble, just upset,

Kitty

PS: JohnB, I remembered to drain my fresh water tank( yesterday), that takes my tongue weight down to 975#

PPSS: think I'll take a ride up to the "Other brand" trailer dealer and have a look at some trailer frame cross members. Maybe even take some pictures

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Old 07-11-2008, 09:52 AM   #49
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Here are some stats and pics from Tweety...not yet having an issue.
(knock on wood)
driver's side where tongue goes through header - notice welding all the way around

door side underneath where tongue goes through header

Full 2" above tongue

I don't know where the caliper is and Steve is in Boston...so I used a ruler and got a thickness of 3/32" (or slightly more than .2 cm) for the header metal.
C channel of the tongue is 1 1/2" x 4"
She left the factory on 10/31/05
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:53 AM   #50
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Once again, I'm not an engineer but it doesn't make sense that the crossmember wouldn't provide support to the A frame. The only place the A frame is attached to the frame is at one spot, at the rear of the A frame, and it has nothing above it to tie it into the main frame/ floor other than the crossmember.

A car trailer, for example, has the tongue welded directly under the main frame. A well made one, has a wrap around tongue that follows the main frame to the first axle. Thus, the main frame, over the A frame, provides the support necessary to stabilize the A frame.

From what I'm seeing here, this crossmember is unable to provide enough strength to stop the A frame from twisting and in the process, the crossmember is destroyed. Just from my viewpoint, I would like to see a nice substantial angle iron welded or bolted to both the mainframe and A frame behind the crossmember, across the entire front of the frame. This would relieve the crossmember from the strain of trying to keep the A frame from flexing. Additionally, I would like to see a piece of rectangular tubing welded above the A frame behind the crossmember to gain support from the upper flange and a angle iron support behind the battery on the upper A frame.

This may be overkill to some extent, but it certainly would increase the support of the A frame and increase rigidity of the structure. Too rigid is probably not good either ( that's why I may favor bolting) but it would seem to be better than what we have now.
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:58 AM   #51
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Pam,

Thanks for checking your Sunline. Information is something that we need plenty of right now.

Does your crossmember have the 1/2" flange or is it wider like the top?
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:16 AM   #52
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Our bottom flange is 1/2". (that is an inside measurement)
Here are some more pics. Sorry about the blur...photograpy isn't my thing.
Inside of driver's side where tongue goes through header

Where tongue joins I Beam
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:52 AM   #53
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RE: Bent frame front cross-member '07 Sunline Solaris T2499

My front frame cross-member has a 2" top flange and a 3/4" bottom flange. The web of the channel is 6 3/8". I will measure the thickness with a micrometer the next time I visit my unit at the "trailer rest home".

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Old 07-11-2008, 11:00 AM   #54
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RE: Bent frame front cross-member '07 Sunline Solaris T2499

test
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:00 AM   #55
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Just for the record. My frame has a 3/4" bottom flange and the top is right about 2".

In Tweety's pictures, notice that the bottom flange is welded to the "A" frame and that the flange bends up in that area - that's what I noticed on my cross member that I thought was a little odd before it bent. I can't be sure but I think the "up" bend got a little greater over time.
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:31 PM   #56
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2499 frame

Thanks to all who are contributing to this thread as we try to understand what is happening and find a permanent solution. Thanks also to Pat and Larry for permission to re-post their photos in this message.

This is turning into a long thread so I'd like to sum up what I've learned to date from sifting through others info and my own experience.

Sunline was well aware of a problem before they shut down and made at least two running production changes in the 2499 frame before they closed down in late 06 midway through the 07 model run. Lippert apparently built this frame strictly to Sunline's specs, did minimal if any engineering on it and quite likely didn't even know the specs of the trailer it was intended for. I left my name and number with Chuck Bell at Lippert, but am not holding my breath. He is the gm of the Denver plant. The head office is in Goshen, IN and that is where any engineering would be done. Bell was understandably a little exasperated when he answered the phone, but I was polite and he didn't brush me off. They obviously had no idea of the scope of the problem and at this point I don't think there is anything to be gained by having others call them. If they do come through with a properly engineered solution, which is all I was asking for, those of us who have already called will immediately post it here.

You've all seen my photos of the early stages and numerous photos of severe damage in the later stages, but I want to draw your attention to Pat's and Larry's photos showing how Sunline worked at solving this problem before they went out of business.

This is Pat's very straight and very heavy 07 2499, one of the last ones made. Note that the A-frame passes through the middle of the header with at least 1" of steel above and below. This avoids the cut directly above the bottom flange that so seriously weakens this critical stress point of the header. In additon there is a 2" X 6" piece of steel welded to the A-frame which gives much needed support.


This is Larry's very broken early 07 2499 (May 06). Note the steel support, like Pat's, welded to the A-frame, but the A-frame still passes through the bottom of the header, although it almost looks like it might have been a little higher than in mine and others.


I would like to see posts from all 05+ 2499 owners telling us whether their frame is bent or straight--check my previous post for a photo of very early damage. Please state the date of manufacture from the front left side sticker. Rick first noticed the steel carrying the battery box was bent, but he didn't look along the header; my battery box is still straight. So be sure to check both while looking for damage.

I think excessive flex of the A-frame legs is the immediate source of this problem. Picture the hook up of a 5th wheel or any ball coupler without wd. There is lots of freedom of movement for turns and up and down and left and right pivoting while negotiating uneven ground like mountain hairpins. I believe in boats and planes this is called yaw, pitch and roll. As soon as wd bars are attached between the TV hitch and TT coupler only yaw (turns) retains freedom of movement. Any turn, as JohnB has stated, and changes in pitch (driving through a dip) and changes in roll (uneven ground, potholes (yeah, I've come around here, Bink6 or mountain hairpins) creates strong repetitive changes in loading of the wd bars. The alternately stressed legs of the A-frame start moving on their own and stress the weak steel between them: the battery box supports and the front header. I hope Bink68's steel tubing reinforcing the rear of the header is the solution, but I worry that is treating the symptom--broken steel--rather than the cause--flexing A-frame. If the header is bent up like Bink68's, Rick's and Kitty's, I think it needs reinforcement like this because that stressed steel will never be the same. I like Rick's idea of angle iron, especially on the front of the A-frame around the battery box--maybe on top behind the box and below in front of the box. The key will be to not tighten the legs so much that the need to flex on the road is shifted from the A-frame to, say, the wd sockets on the TV hitch. Then we're just trading one problem for a worse one. So I really hope Lippert does some engineering on this. In the meantime I would counsel not to jump at a DIY solution before JohnB and others have had a chance to mull this over. I would really like to know if Sunline passed on a fix to any RV dealers. Mine is out of business, but many of you have mentioned Stoltzfus. Could someone check with them to see if they have the fix.

I also urge caution for anyone towing a coach where the header looks like mine, let alone the others. The fix on mine will be relatively simple--maybe an hour or less of welding, but once it gets bent up the cost will go up too. For any 05+ owners that count themselves lucky to have dodged this bullet so far, preemptive reinforcement of the frame is essential so keep posted.

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Old 07-11-2008, 03:13 PM   #57
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I plan to contact Lee, at Stoltzfus tomorrow, he is off on fridays. I am hoping that if they haven't dealt with this problem, Lee might get them to look at this site/pictures and come up with something.


According to Chuck Bell at Lippert this "am", Lippert had no engineering input into the failing frame design. Sunline designed it, brought it to them and said build it this way. I AM waiting for a return call, and I WILL be their worst nightmare until I get a call back. They design & build trailer frames, so they "should ?" be able to figure out a fix for this problem.

Also, a little more about my mess. Last July when I had a wheel bearing burn up, Sunny was loaded onto a flat bed and chained down and towed to Adventure RV for repairs. Sometime after this incident, I did notice a "slight" forward bow to my crossmember and "slight" upward bow on the rear battery rail. I assumed (wrong thing to do) the bows had come from the tow guy chaining Sunny down. Remember he pinched a wire against the chassis with the tiedown chain and blew up the battery . So, apparently, my crossmember starting to bow began last July or earlier, and apparently was not the tow truck drivers fault.
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:11 PM   #58
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Here is the info from our 2007 T2499 (no damage). It was made in Oct 2006.

It has a 6-1/8" I Beam with 4" A Frame. The beam (measured without calipers) is about 1/8" thick (10 gauge). The top flange is 1-11/16" wide and the bottom flange is 1-9/16" wide.

On the inside of the I beam where the 4" A frame cuts through there is
1-3/16" above the A frame and 15/16" below the A Frame.

The added weld is 2-7/8" x 6" x 1/4" thick.

1st pix shows the weld where A frame cuts through I beam and second picture shows the back side of where the A frame cuts through I beam.


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Old 07-11-2008, 06:38 PM   #59
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Kathy,

I am not surprised that your coach doesn't have any damage, and I suspect it probably won't. Your's is the highest production 2499 built that I know of, which I would think means you have the newest 2499 frame of the group.

Your coach was built 68 coaches after Pat & Cindy's.

So let's do some simple math here. I currently have 17 identified '07 2499's and 9 unidentified. The unidentifieds are only from units for sale, I haven't added anyone from this club. So that makes a total of 26 '07 2499's I "have".

So, when I "have" 147 identified coaches total for '07, with a grand total of 266 coaches, that's roughly 5.9346% of the total '07 production, assuming my speculation is correct as to the total number produced. Using a simple mathematic proportion (and I know it should be weighted since the 2499 was way more popular than the Advancer 20), this would mean:

26/266 = x/2477 Therefore, x should equal 242.1128. I'd safely say that Sunline built around 242 T-2499's in the 2007 model year, if not more. If I were working at Sunline and crunching these numbers, I would sure want to pull the plug ASAP. With the potential cost of repairing (if they're lucky) 100 of these units, plus the liability if someone got in an accident from this, that could bring a company down quick.

Not to mention Henry pointed out how Sunline obviously knew about the problem since they kept making changes to the frames over the years. I've got 27 total for '06, so there's probably better odds for that model year. Add in 2005 also, and that's just more fuel to the fire. With being a small business like they were, Sunline I know couldn't handle flat-bedding 500+ coaches back to the factory to have the frames repaired.

Jon
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:25 PM   #60
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Good Info

Thanks Kathy and Jon. I'm starting to get a much clearer picture now of what might have gone on at Sunline.

Pat, I missed that thick bottom flange in your photo. Can you please confirm whether you also have 1 9/16" like Kathy and whether you have the heavier gauge header as well. If not, Sunline made this a separate change which is also very interesting. The bottom flange in mine is only 5/8" and the top flange 1 15/16", call it 2" and it's only 12 gauge as well.

Larry, I missed whether you posted the flange widths. I'll check the earlier posts, but please come back with those measurements if we don't have them already.

Kathy, given Pat's 60,000 mi. with a heavily loaded coach, I think you can start breathing a little easier about now I'm beginning to think that Sunline did indeed discover the problem and finally stumbled onto the solution. Unfortunately this is a bottom up solution and there will be no possible retrofit. We still need to look for a way to keep the A-frame from flexing. I think I'm going to start calling it a V-frame because that's a better description.

Henry
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