Bent front frame cross-member on '07 Solaris T-2499

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by henryj

After seeing Rick's picture last night I headed out this morning for a closer look... and I do have the beginnings of this frame damage. Some photos first and then I'll sum up with my take on the problem.

This is the early stage of the problem illustrated by John and Rick. Although it is not clear in the photo, the front cross member is bending in the area exactly between the legs of the A-frame.



I agree with John and Rick, this kind of damage is caused by strong long term, or repeated, twisting forces.

So why is Rick's so much worse after 2600 mi. than mine at 10,000 mi.? If it really is frame flex, that will happen every time in the transition from street to driveway or camping on uneven ground. My trailer has only left my yard maybe half a dozen times in two years. And on our long trips we tend to stay in fairly smooth level RV parks too. I'm wondering now if the wd bars should be unhooked before making the really tight driveway and campsite moves. I could handle that on arrival, but it would be a major pain to have everything loaded up, pull out and then stop on the road to hook up the wd bars. I also think a fair amount of additional force and flex is introduced when cranking up the rear end of the truck to hook and unhook the wd bars. A weekend camper would also be doing this much more often than a long distance traveller.

The damage we're describing in this thread is not caused by any operator error or anything else out of the ordinary.

Henry

Henry

I’m glad you went and looked and thank you for the great post of pics and info. I wish I was home to see mine and my T310SR to look for differences.

Now to some of your questions. Yes it does look like yours is starting to buckle the frame header. It is not as advanced yet.

To the twisting going on, yes each turn gives a degree of twist. Flex is normal. Key is the flex does not get up to the yield limit and or the safety factor stress limit established for this design. It is safe to say, it is being exceeded in some cases.

Bink68’s snapped frame I “think” is the result of many flexes and then it went. Where his header let loose from the A frame is a tension snap. It not in shear from what I can see. And his battery shelf is bent so the twisting is much more advanced then Rick’s. I agree it is twisting forces right now, but the jury is still out if that is all the forces going on.

On Ricks with such short time on it, like I said he may have had the perfect storm setup to overload in one fail swoop, while Bink68’s took time.

What are you bed loads in the 1500HD aft of the axles? If the truck bed aft of the axles is empty in a turn, the spring bars load up from the trun and then lifts up the back of the truck sort of neutralizing the extra bar loads. If the bed load is heavy, the forces are larger then if the bed load is heavier. Your loads may be lighter then Ricks. And then thre is the anlge of back flex in a turn that Rick may have had. Again adding more load at that 1 point in time.

On the 4” channel tongue to the 6” I beam, I agree I personally would like to have seen more then the 4” A frame, but I may be more heavy duty then some… In all this the 4” channel is not bending to a permanent distortion that we know of yet. I’ll retract this if Clarkldc’s shows bad signs. Let’s say at the moment the weak link is the header. There is always a weakest link.

My T310SR I do believe is 10” frame and has 6” channel iron A frame. A 10 to 6 is more in relationship change then 6 to 4. For the life of me I cannot remember how that is attached. But I will for sure look next Wednesday when I get home and post back.

On the cut outs to the A frame channel in the header, I agree this could have been better with the age or water jet cutting and lazer. It could of been a perfect match and welded closed, from a craftsmanship stand point at least. From pure strength, section modulus determines the strength of a beam. The web width of 6” is giving it the strength. The welded 4” channel on the web is helping keep that cutout together. However I agree I would of welded both sides to gain a little more rigidity. The lower flange being ½”, that is what would help control the beam buckle. Part of the problem is that ½” is not rigid enough to stop the buckle.

Now do you have to take the WD bars off every time you back up into a CG? My opinion, no. You will be exchanging one problem for another. Then your truck receiver is taking a dead load with no WD in place. Doing a lot of backing up in non WD mode on a receiver with heavy loads will not help the pin box attachment. Plus it is one royal pain in the neck. The TT frame has to be made to handle the normal WD towing loads. What do we do when we make a 180 degree forward U turn? We can have worse forces then backing up into the camp site.

I agree, these issues are not from camper misuse that we have seen or read on so far. Each setup is loaded different, towed different and it can aggravate the problem quicker then the next person.

We do not know if Lippert will do much and when. Fortunately we have a good camper group here where we can talk about the issues and owners can be aware and try to react. It is not normal to go out can check ones frame for bending at each campout nor did Sunline or Lippert ever envision us too.

More info keeps helping us all understand this better.

Originally Posted by bink68

Hi,

I'm John's buddy and owner of the 2499 where the frame actually fractured in the pictures earlier in this thread.

I hope that all of this helps other owners of this particular unit. If I had known about the problem earlier, I surely would have had the reinforcement added and avoided the whole situation. It's still a great unit.

Bink good buddy, glad you made it to the Club and Welcome. We have a fine group hear and glad to have you with us. And yes I know others are glad you helped share your misfortunate with us.

John

[Hematite]

John, yes, I did use a dial caliper to measure the crosspiece. It is .103 including the thickness of the paint. Whether this is acceptable within specs for 12 gauge steel, I don't know, It seems kind of thin.

I think that Henry brought up another issue in his photos that bothers me and that is that the A frame is supported by a sheet of .103 steel at the crosspiece. I would think that a filler piece of rectangular steel above the A frame would be a good idea. I would hope that there is a structural steel member above that area or that wouldn't accomplish a thing.

In looking the problem over I would think that, once the crossmember is straightened, a piece of heavy angle iron bolted or welded to the bottom of the A frame would do the trick. This would be behind the crosspiece. Another piece of angle, bolted or welded to the top of the A frame between the battery and crosspiece should complete the fix. I'm not an engineer, but this may work. I don't know if bolting or welding would be preferred on a structural piece like the A frame.

[clarkldc]

Fellow Sunline 2499 Owners,

I hope that I can post some pictures using this website.


right side of frame shows a complete break









loking from underside left to right showing the break



left side of frame showing break on bottom flange



left side of frame showing break and bend





looking from right to left from below showing the broken and bent cross-member and the upward bend to the battery rear angle bracket




I hope that these pictures are helpful. As you can probably see the damage looks similar to what others are seeing. I hope that I am not overloading this forum with my pictures.

Thanks very much for all of the interest in my postings. Let's keep it going to see if we can come to some acceptable resolution.

Larry

[bink68]

I'll consider myself lucky that my break wasn't as severe as yours.

Although my unit didn't break along the "A" frame like yours, the metal was bent back somewhat on both sides.

I did notice that from day one of ownership that my right (sidewalk) side spring bar always took more effort to set at three links than the left (streetside). I would suspect that if we checked the side to side weight on the unit that the right side weight is much higher than the left. It could be the differences in weight that cause the twisting action.

Also be aware that the rough pavement I was talking about in South Carolina includes numerious sections where the right side has the pothole or broken pavement while the left is perfectly good. Hence, the right side took the shock while the left didn't.

[clarkldc]

I can not seem to get the rest of my pictures posted now. Maybe they are too large of files.

[kathyh]

The pix are not showing up - only the first one showing the complete break.

We have a 2007 T2499 but so far no damage. If I am following the thread correctly, the 1/2 inch flange being discussed is about 1 1/2 - 1 3/4 on our trailer - the same width as the top flange. Watching this thread with interest.

Rob and KathyH

[kanyonkitty]

Well, I guess I didn't want to be left out of this problem. My '06 T-2499 was built June '05, so very very early '06 model as the new interior colors had just rolled out in the new units. I am sadly attaching pics of my frame. This is especially difficult for me to deal with, as you all know I am on my own for repair & maintenance. So, all help WILL be GREATLY appreciated. Now to the disturbing pictures:





















Now, is it SAFE to continue to tow Sunny, or is he parked until fixed?

Thanks,
Kitty

[Hematite]

I can only speak for myself but I won't put my Sunline back on the road until the problem is fixed. The lack of support of the A frame, once the crosspiece breaks, cannot be good on any level.

My Sunline is grounded!

Kitty, In the 5th picture down, It looks like the center bolt, that attaches to the crosspiece and Sunline body, was broken off when the crosspiece buckled forward (rusted hole in flange in the center/upper part of pic 5). Your crosspiece buckled forward ( the others went back), and I notice that the rear battery bracket is buckled up (which seems typical with the rest).

kathyh, thanks for sharing the flange depth info with us. I was going to suggest that if the lower flange was as wide as the upper that we probably wouldn't need to have this thread!

[PTHutch]

Originally Posted by kanyonkitty

Now, is it SAFE to continue to tow Sunny, or is he parked until fixed?

Kitty,

I agree with Rick, I wouldn't tow your Sunline until you get it fixed.

I would suggest that everyone start calling Chuck Bell at Lippert Components, Inc, (who Larry, (clarkldc) talked to) and hopefully they will provide assistance in rectifying the situation.

Larry would you be willing to post the phone number for Chuck Bell of Lippert?

Hutch

[PTHutch]

Originally Posted by clarkldc

I can not seem to get the rest of my pictures posted now. Maybe they are too large of files.

Larry,

I don't think your pictures are too large.
The only way I was able to get them to display was to display them in a seperate web tab, using their http address. This got them into my local cache, which allow the picture to show up in the post.
So maybe it has something to do with where you have the pictures located within your Kodak Gallery.

Sorry I wasn't more help.
Hutch

[264SRinPA]

Hey bink,
We are practically neighbors, I'm just on the other side of the mountain in Bangor.

[Hematite]

I believe that there is a frame warranty on these units. Since Lippert components is still in business, the warranty should still be in place. Does anyone know what is the length of the warranty?

If the warranty is still in effect, a repair should be able to be obtained through a local RV dealer with an approval of Lippert.

If there is no warranty in effect, we will probably have to pursue this directly with Lippert Components.

[emam]

WOW!! After talking with Hutch who is helping me plan a trip to the North Eest for the fall colors, he told me I should check out this thread.

What the heck is going on with those frames???

I've just come back in from crawling under the entire coach with a fine tooth comb, and I cant find one piece anywhere that looks like it might even have so much as a crack in the welds.

Now my frame looks a bit different than the ones that have posted pictures of theirs. Mine looks like it has a support piece welded on the back side of the frame from where it comes through the front crossmember.

It might be like someone stated before, we almost always have the motorcycle hung off the back which changes the tongue weight of the camper drastically.

We have a Reese Weight Distribution Hitch with 1000lb sway bars just to compare. I have no idea how much my tongue weight is, and I dont know how to measure it either.

We've just gotten back to Michigan to sit for a few months because I was planning on doing a host of mod's to the inside to get ready for the next leg of the journey. In the past 17 months, we've towed our 2499 over 60,000 miles without an ounce of trouble?

The only time we had the motorcycle off was while we were in Baja which was about 3500 miles off the total amount. Those were some of the worst roads we've seen also.

I'm gonna go back out to see if I can take a few pictures of what my frame looks like to compare

[clarkldc]

Fellow 2499 Owners

The phone number I have for Mr. Chuck Bell of Lippert Components, Inc. of Denver, PA is as follows: (717) 484-6111 . I hope that he won't mind my posting, but I believe I found the number on the website for Lipper Components, Inc.

The number of members with 2499 frame problems seems to be growing.

Until later, Good Luck and keep posting until we can get some resolution!!

Larry

[JohnB]

Larry

Your pics are not coming thru and I "think" I know why. The 1st image is coming thru. The rest are not.

I suspect it is this, you are missing the IMG command to start the link and the /IMG command to close it. These has to be [ ] brackets on both sides of the commands to make it work and NO spaces. It looks like this "[img]" I had to put quotes around it in this replay so the forum will not start that command.

Also if there is a space bar inserted before the http: from a cut and paste of the address it will invalidated the command. These darn puters those spaces mean something….Same at the end after the .jpg. Go back and check if there is an extra space bar inserted by accident somewhere and if you have the IMG commands right.

What ever you did on the first one works and NO the pics are not too big.

I really want to see these. But I have to load each one in a new web window to view it outside the forum.

Here is one of them with the right command structure and no spaces that would not post in your reply so I know your Kodak server is OK to post here.



Super thanks for sharing. A lot is being learned here now. And how many more have the problem.... and who has a change in the newer frames. Some how it appears a change was made. We need to know what the change was.

If this was a few weeks earlier I could of gone around at the M & G and checked all the T2499 frames and other models right there all in one spot... But timing is everything, and now thanks to Larry and Bink, now many more know in advance of a potential problem. This started as a tip off from Bink and I in the background on a post I was going to create but had not made it too yet, then Larry came on board and now look….. Sunline Club rules…. Us Sunliners stick togehter.

John

[JohnB]

Ut OH....

Larrys pic will post in my pre view pane but not out the open forum

Larry, I'm digging. Something not right with the Kodak linking string.

John

Edit: 11:23PM

OK this is getting more interesting. Once the picture I have viewed from a window in exployer, now it views on the open forum a 2nd time???? I happen to have a Kodak account however never used it much and only have like 3 pic's up on it.

Let me see if these 2 pic post. Can you all see 2 pic here? First my T2499 being pulled by my Suburban


Next is the hitch setup back in 2005:


I think this is a Kodak thing.

[JohnB]

Larry

There is an issue with the way Kodak names the pic files to be able to link into the forum that I cannot figure out how they work with the forum. I tried from my own Kodak account and it will not work either. You are not doign anything wrong. All I can see is the X unless I went to the open web and put it in a window then my catch pulled it up the 2nd time on the forum....

I think the issue is that Kodak has some unique way to Easy Share in emails. And in order to have it post to open web forums you have to apply for a ID name and then the pics will have a screen name and will link in OK.

To help out here, I have recreated your post with your pics so they will view off my photo bucket site so we can all see. If I mixed up your pics and working, please let me know.

John

[JohnB]

Note: This is Clarkldc prior post with linked pics to help us view these

Fellow Sunline 2499 Owners,

I hope that I can post some pictures using this website.

right side of frame shows a complete break






loking from underside left to right showing the break

left side of frame showing break on bottom flange


left side of frame showing break and bend



looking from right to left from below showing the broken and bent cross-member and the upward bend to the battery rear angle bracket


I hope that these pictures are helpful. As you can probably see the damage looks similar to what others are seeing. I hope that I am not overloading this forum with my pictures.

Thanks very much for all of the interest in my postings. Let's keep it going to see if we can come to some acceptable resolution.

Larry

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by emam

I've just come back in from crawling under the entire coach with a fine tooth comb, and I cant find one piece anywhere that looks like it might even have so much as a crack in the welds.

Now my frame looks a bit different than the ones that have posted pictures of theirs. Mine looks like it has a support piece welded on the back side of the frame from where it comes through the front crossmember.

I'm gonna go back out to see if I can take a few pictures of what my frame looks like to compare

Pat

Your travels are a proving ground for the frame connections. 60K miles with where we have seen you go over the last year........ What better test

And we know that the Eman camper has 2 very talented photographers who live in it.

Please help show us what you have. And measure the frame header as well if you can.

Originally Posted by Kathyh

We have a 2007 T2499 but so far no damage. If I am following the thread correctly, the 1/2 inch flange being discussed is about 1 1/2 - 1 3/4 on our trailer - the same width as the top flange. Watching this thread with interest.

Kathy or Rob

Is it possible you can take pics of your and also measure the bottom flange width?

Originally Posted by Tweety

We have the same frame and crossmembers on our 2753. Does this problem seem to be unique to the 2499? and if so, can you speculate as to why? So far our welds look fine and everything looks flat.

Pam or Steve

You say yours is made from the same verbal construction. Can you look and see if in fact it is now that we have more pics? Especially the front header? And if yours is different can you post pics?

It appears there is an evolution in the frame construction. As more of this keeps coming in, actual tongue weight in realtion to header buckling may be better understood. After seeing Larry's pics which is so far the worst we have seen, the jury is still out on the casue and the fix.

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by kanyonkitty

Well, I guess I didn't want to be left out of this problem. My '06 T-2499 was built June '05, so very very early '06 model as the new interior colors had just rolled out in the new units. I am sadly attaching pics of my frame. This is especially difficult for me to deal with, as you all know I am on my own for repair & maintenance. So, all help WILL be GREATLY appreciated. Now to the disturbing pictures:

Now, is it SAFE to continue to tow Sunny, or is he parked until fixed?

Thanks,
Kitty

Kitty

Your front header is really buckled. The rotary disconnect and battery angles are bent. Earlier this year you where digging in the junction box to fix your circuit breaker and the battery.

Do you remember if it was bent then? Or last year when it was up on the car hauler?

Did this happened coming back from Button wood when you had almost full water? Do you rememr any hard turns and bumps while in the turns?

I was 20 inches away from that battery case and 30" away from the header at the M & G weighing your tongue. And I bent down and looked under your coach at the water tank. Man, I did not remember if it was bent that bad then or not. Something like that would have jumped out at me, but I may have missed it or it bent on the way home.

Some of your pics may show when it was OK and when it went this bad.

From my opinion now seeing how far yours is bent and knowing you have a generator in the front, I would say do not do more camping until it is fixed. From the pic's, the header strength is now compromised. The damage is minimized right now. If it progresses like Larry’s, the entire header may have to be changed/redone.

If you have to tow it, drain the water tank if it is not. The fresh tank adds 200# of tongue weight on that floor plan alone.

I forgot who your dealer was and I remember you a has special inside informant on Sunline during the final days. That friend may help now more then one knows.

Keep us posted.

John