Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
Sunline RV Forum
Sunline User Photos

Go Back   Sunline Coach Owner's Club > Technical Forums > Repairs and Maintenance
Click Here to Login

Join Sunline Club Forums Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-04-2017, 01:31 PM   #21
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,643
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck VA View Post
Throwing in the technical version because it's shorter and sounds like you'd already understand it, but glad to translate for others who'd like if I can get a chance at a keyboard later.

From your photos, that looks like inelastic flange local buckling. That looks almost certain. Your measurements of the flange also show it has a width to thickness ratio of 16.74, which confirms this is possible, the limit on how slender a flange can be to avoid this is a ratio of about 9.2 for this material.

Chuck
Hi Chuck,

First, Welcome to Sunline Owners Club! No need to lurk, the cyber campfire burns bright out in the open here... and your talents are much appreciated.

Yes, please explain the I shape buckling to the group when you get time. This is a good learning post. Sunline made several campers with the I shape design. Some using 6" others 10" tall. I can tell you are more into bigger structural so go for it, I'm more machine based.

I will PM you.

Thanks

John
__________________

__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 05:19 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
johnnybgood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Maryland
Posts: 488
SUN #8237
johnnybgood is an unknown quantity at this point
A Winter Project - Slide Opening, Frame Repair (Picture heavy)

Kinda' off subject, forgive me.......

I'm no engineer so bare with me.

Surprised a slide out even works long term on any travel trailer at all. I'm trying to envision a slide out that can potentially seat 7 people (what's that, 1100 lbs?) and the slide out's look like their almost hanging in space. Seems like it could be a problem to me, though I've never actually inspected one close up.
__________________

__________________
John
2000 T2370
johnnybgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 08:27 AM   #23
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,643
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybgood View Post

Surprised a slide out even works long term on any travel trailer at all. I'm trying to envision a slide out that can potentially seat 7 people (what's that, 1100 lbs?) and the slide out's look like their almost hanging in space. Seems like it could be a problem to me, though I've never actually inspected one close up.
Hi John,

The slide is pretty well attached to the camper. There are a few different types of slide systems, meaning the mechanisms under the camper to hold it up and extend and retract it.

Mine, which is a larger camper, uses a rack and pinion system of arms to move the slide in and out. This is known as "the Lippert" system, the ones who created/made this slide mechanism.

There are 3 areas of support on the slide system.

1. The slide mechanism
2. The slide floor
3. The camper wall structure.

Here is the slide mechanism. It has 2 arms that come out of the frame of the camper. They help hold the outside wall of the camper when it is extended out.

The motor drive system


The arms attach to the underside of the slide. This is not my camper, it is a Skyline camper of one of my friends, same Lippert system though.


And here are 2 pics of my camper apart getting ready for the frame fix. These are a sneak peak of a reply yet to come... You can see the 2 arms on the slide and there location.




There is a rack and pinion drive to connect the 2 arms to drive in and out at once.


The slide floor is supported by the the camper floor too. When the slide is in, the weight of the outside wall is pressing down on the slide floor that then presses down on the camper floor, which presses down on the main trailer frame. The slide arms are under the wall too, but the floor of the camper now helps hold a lot of the weight when towing down the road.

The slide floor open end (length direction) also holds a good part of the slide floor weight when the slide is extended. All those 1,100# of people you were talking about, a good part of it is held by the slide floor pressing down on the camper floor when the slide is out. See here. This is my camper while fixing slide floor rot... a problem I inherited "I think" from sitting on the dealer's lot with the slide open waiting to be sold to me.

The black water proofing material is over the wood. Floor is a full 1" thick. The metal trough is part of the camper floor system. You can see the metal trough is holding the edge of the long length of slide floor


.



Now the camper walls. The slide, front and rear wall and the top ceiling have extruded aluminum flanges on the outside of them. The camper wall opening also has these flanges. The amount of length of the flanges is the entire wall height and roof line. And there are lots of screws in them to the slide itself and the camper walls. Those flanges when the slide is out or in carry a load of the slide into the camper walls. The flanges overlap each other to hold the load.

See here. This is a slide flange off the camper


Here that flange on the slide and there is one on the wall opening of the camper.


The slide flange and the camper wall flange overlap creating the grip to hold each other.


When the slide is out holding up those 1,100# of people, those flanges are holding the entire slide "box" up real tight to the wall opening and helps hold the slide from tipping out of the camper. See here


While the slide floor holds up the one end of the floor, and the slide arms underneath hold up the outer wall, these flanges are holding the whole slide from tipping out of the camper and helps even out the load on the slide arms.

All 3 areas work together to hold up the 1,100# of people. Now that said, the slide is not this strong when full in, part way in or part way out. If you put those 1,100# of people on my slide when it is fully in, I would break the the slide floor out as my slide lifts up off the carpet when it retracts in. See here





And some folks have pulled their slide dinettes off the wall by stepping on the slide when it is in as the floor is not fully supported when in. A rug board under the slide floor solves that issue, but the point is, the slide floor is very well supported once it is fully out tight up against the wall of the camper. And the slide itself is supported well to tow down the road when it is fully retracted.

I elaborated on this a bit because the way my floor plan is built, the rear end of the slide creates a heavy weight pushing down on the frame behind the rear axle when towing. There is also storage under the couch in the slide. During this investigation I weighed my slide and estimate with all the camping gear and furniture in it, it weighs 1,150# with no people in it. 600# at the rear side wall of the slide and 550# at the front of the slide wall. And then there is a about 2 1/4 foot wall section at the back of the camper supporting the roof loads pushing down on the back of the camper and the rear end wall pushing down on the frame. The big slide room opening in the wall shifts a percentage of the support to the axle area and back of the camper frame.

The slide is pretty robust when extended, however we need to understand the weak areas of it to not accidentally do something wrong when it is not fully out extended.

Does that help understand it better?

John
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 03:40 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
johnnybgood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Maryland
Posts: 488
SUN #8237
johnnybgood is an unknown quantity at this point
Yes John, I understand now. Thank you so much!

Maybe you could start a new thread with that post for other newbies.
__________________
John
2000 T2370
johnnybgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 11:02 AM   #25
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,643
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybgood View Post
Yes John, I understand now. Thank you so much!

Maybe you could start a new thread with that post for other newbies.
Hi John,

Your welcome. Glad to explain or try too. That is what this site is all about, us good camper folks exchanging ideas and learning from each other. The learning never stops... The more folks understand about their camper, the better.

This frame thing is a new learning one for me.

Thanks

John
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 11:23 AM   #26
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,643
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
Hi Jim,

Getting back to you on this one so you can hopefully go bury your dog bone for another day…LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363 View Post
JohnB, I finally got the link to the other damaged frame you posted to open (different computer). Notice how that stress is closer to the spring hanger bracket? Also, notice the bottom flange has twisted two ways. One side down and another side up. Your frame seems to be bent up on both sides and further away from the spring hanger bracket.

Your stresses are different, to me, and the reaction of that stress stops closer to where you placed your jack stand instead of at the place that stress should end, at the hanger bracket.

Guess I'm like a dog with a bone now. Sorry
I have rechecked and convinced "myself" that the jack stands did not create this lower flange damage. I will try and keep it to just the jack stands as your other note went into the flange damage itself. More on that later.

I have done a lot of work on the running gear and hangers of this camper along with normal bearings and brake maintenance. From out of aligned axles, to flexing bending hangers from turns, redoing the heated tank compartment for better features, fixing the brake circuit wiring, adding self-adjusting brakes etc. the camper has been on stands a fair amount. The point mentioning this, with all this jacking and on stands there was not any lower flange damage I have now. I could of jacked up the camper….at least 50 times and that is not an exaggeration. I was like a pit crew getting it up off the ground and on stands…

On 5-10-2009 I added the 2” x Ό x 24” long flat bar gusset to each hanger area. This was originally added to stop the hanger flexing in turns that can in time, crack the web area. Mine never cracked, but I did have the bent hangers. Many others with this style frame have cracked including some SOC members. That reinforcement actually did more for me then I had realized until you questioned the jack stands. Thanks to you for helping me learn some new things!

Prior to the 5/2009 time I still had the camper up on stands a good amount dealing with the out of aligned axles etc. Maybe not the 50 plus times but a good 20 some. There was no added support, just the original unsupported flange setup. Keep this thought in mind as we go forward.

The lower deformation is only on this slide side at the maximum moment area.
The other 3 locations that use the same jack stands show no signs of deformation as of today. Even from before the 2” flat bar gusset.
The lower flange deformation came "after" the 1/4 x 2" flat bar gussets were added to all 4 spring hanger ends.

OK that is all subjective info, but good to keep in mind as a jack stand issue should of showed up a lot more with all that up and down of the camper if the stands were an issue.

I did this yesterday to help show you why I have come to this conclusion.

First, I needed to know the weights of the camper jacking behind the left rear hanger. This is the area I have most always jacked up the camper. I lift until both tires are off the ground. This side of the camper is now supported by the hydraulic floor jack and the front tongue jack. The right side is still on the tires.

You can see here where I put my floor jack, it has 2 large oak boards on top to gain height and I make sure the jack top plate is dead center on the frame rail. Similar to your approach making sure I lift on center.


Once the tires are off the ground, I slide the jack stands in. When I let the jack down, the front jack stand “always” touches first, then the back stand as the camper is sagging as the jack is behind the rear axle.

So yesterday I used my force jack and measured the force to lift the left side of the camper with the tires off the ground. This is not the towing weight as for the winter we have all food, and freezable things out of the camper but is it close to full weight.


Here is the weight of this side at this jack point, 4,000lb


And here is the back side once the front jack stand touches, 2,800lb


So that rear jack stand was holding 2,800lb. That gave me a force load to start with. I also redid a frame material deflection test yesterday I have been working on to help determine the type of steel the frame is made out of. The outcome of that test has now worked a lot better than the first 2 attempts… thanks to Chuck VA's help. This helped give me a good idea of the mechanical properties of the steel. I could use that info to do a quick calculation on the lower flange to see what league the stress the lower flange might be in from and off center jack stand.

First let’s look at the jack stand and the frame. Hopefully this screen print comes out so you can see it.
Remember this pic from a few days ago? We are talking about the 6 ton one. The 12 ton I have to use plates on the stand to bridge the curved depression as the curve is too wide.




This drawing is to scale of the 6 ton jack stand arm and the frame.


On the left, is the stand arm shifted full right. See the support is under the gusseted area and there is a small amount under the inside flange.

The center image shows the stand centered. Both flanges now have contact.

On the right, the stand arm is shifted all the way to the left. In this case, the inside flange has a lot of support and the outside flange has a very small amount but still in contact.

Since this added 2” gusset was not always on the camper, I did a quick calculation based on that drawing of the far right image where most of the weight is held by the inside flange on the jack stand. Note: The left flange is still touching, just not a lot. The stress is not high enough with a jack stand load of 2,800lb to permanently deform the flange. Granted you do not want to bounce the camper on that right flange but the static load did not show it was enough to permanently bend the flange. Remember, the outside flange still touches a little and is carrying load. I “normally always” center the jack stand on both flanges have load. But even if I mess up, both flanges still have load on them.

As a backup, I measured the deflection of the outside flange under the gusseted area while jacking up the camper. This is actual data from jacking up the camper, not calculated. This helps show how much added strength that gusset adds. Basically putting it, that reinforced outside flange can lift and hold the entire 4,000# of the camper and then some.

CAUTION: Do not try this at home…. (seriously, your camper may not handle this)

Here is the test, a dial indicator up high on the frame with the touch point on the outer flange. The force jack is placed on the very outside of the flange on purpose for this test. The most deflection potential location.




I did this twice with the jack in 2 locations. The first is to put the indicator tip on the flange “between” 2 welds and the jack under the indicator. This allows this short piece of deflect more freely. This deflected 0.028” with a full 4,000lb lift of the camper. Sorry for the out of focus pic. 0.028” is not much and nowhere near the yielding deflection point of this steel.


The next test was to place the jack right under the gusset weld but leave the indicator tip in the same location. This deflected 0.015” with a full 4,000lb lift of the entire camper. Even less.


Point in all this, the way my 6 ton jack stands and camper frame are made combined with the way I use them, it is not causing the frame damage.

Jim, your method of using a plate and lifting by the center is not a bad one. Keep doing it. Your frame is different and I use the same method just with my 4” of oak boards for lifting. I do not know your jack stands and how they fit with your frame. They may not work like mine as I know my frame is wider. And I do not use my larger stands without a steel plate to bridge the curved recess as while it “might” work, I’m not testing that one…

Does this now allow you to go bury the bone???? LOL

Thanks again, I learned some new things so this is all good stuff. Now to your next question on the flange damage… It might take a bit before I get to that.

Thanks

John
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 03:03 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
johnnybgood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Maryland
Posts: 488
SUN #8237
johnnybgood is an unknown quantity at this point
John, more newbie questions.......

so based on your experience with slides, would you purchase another camper with a slide?

My wife would like to get a larger camper and she likes the extra space a slide affords. You've eased my mind about the workings of them, but I'm concerned about the water tightness of them.

It's probably on the forum here somewhere, but what was the cause of your water leak that lead to your floor repair? I know you said it sat for quite a while with the slide open before you bought it and I've seen numerous campers for sale (not in person) that have/had water damage around the slide

Also, what happens when you pack up from a trip in the rain? Does the slider roof not hold enough water to be a concern? I'm guessing you need to keep a ladder handy and brush the debris off if you don't have a topper?
__________________
John
2000 T2370
johnnybgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 06:11 PM   #28
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,643
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
Hi Folks,

While I am working on the frame fix planning, I was able to do some disassembly and repair work on the slide.

On the slide roof, there is a strip of slide tape or in my case, Eternabond tape that covers over the lengthwise top outboard slide flange with butyl sealing tape under the flange to roof to help prevent water entry. This Eternabond tape was damaged when the slide was out of alignment. I also had some scraping damage on the slide roof end moldings. And the rear side sealing tape on the slide flange was partly folded back by the out of aligned slide. All that and the slide gasket seal was badly beat up and needed replacing. To make the frame repair go easier I needed to remove the lower siding panel to get in to do the repair.

Taking the slide parts off is not that hard, but it comes with tedious removal of the butyl and putty sealing tape. There may be several ways on how to do this, these shown here are the ones I researched out and have adopted/modified to be the best way so far. If others have some of their tips and tricks, please chime in. These types of repair apply to many camper fixes when dealing with windows, cargo doors, entry doors or even roof seams.

First is the top slide flange Eternabond tape and the slide top flange removal. There was also some rubber roof towards the end that had lifted over the years. I will address all of this with the slide fix. If you have never worked with removing Eternabond or butyl slide tape, this is the process I adopted. Part of this comes from the Eternabond website and things I found along the way. I’ll do this in pics for brevity.

The area to remove the Eternabond tape. This is a multi-step process of cleanup, here is Step 1.


The tools needed area a 1400 watt or higher heat gun, a very dull putty knife, a junk bucket and a scrape board. On the putty knife, you have to sand or grind all the square edges totally dull. You do not want this to scrape the rubber roof.

You heat the area of tape to lift about 1 foot long at a time. Keep the heat pointing ahead of you and keep the heat gun moving. You do not want to stop for long in the same spot. I have not done it yet, but the rubber can burn if you stand in one spot a long time. 30 seconds is a long time. Warm and use the putty knife and gently push. You will find the right amount of heat to allow an easy push and some time you can go a good 2 to 3 feet. You do not want to dig. The goo that comes up is molten hot. Be careful to not touch it, it will hurt, use gloves. I found using a junk piece of OSB board works well for a scrape board. It is rough and the goo sticks in the rough woods and allows you to wipe the knife clean easier. But any board will work


The bucket gets the big roll up globs of the top covering material. Use a bucket or old can that later you will throw away.

When you get done with cleaning Step 1, it looks like this. Most of the Eternabond is up, but you still need more cleanup later.


Now you can start to take the aluminum slide flange off. You take out all the screws along the length. Both the top down and side screws under the white vinyl trim cover. Then again use the heat gun to warm the aluminum molding. Start on one end of the slide and warm about 3 to 4 feet of the molding top and side. Work the putty knife under one end and start to pull. It will pull hard, so heat more while applying pressure but do not over pull to not bend the flange. Once it starts to lift, stop and move down and heat another 3 to 4 feet. Putty knife under it and apply pressure. Lift a little until it starts to break free, then move down again 3 to 4 feet and start over. By the time 8 feet or so are done the very beginning might start to break loose from the camper. I found if I put the putty knife under the siding flange side and pry up, it is better than on the roof trying to pry off. Less chance of damaging the roof. Eventually with enough heat and pulling I could pivot the flange up onto the roof and then break the butyl tape free. Looks like this


Here is a pic of up close on Step 2 cleanup. Putty tape on the siding and butyl sealing tape on the on the roof.


You can tell putty tape by it breaking apart so easy when pulling on it. You really cannot tell by the color. They do make gray butyl. Sunline mostly used white butyl that I have seen and gray putty tape. The pull test will confirm. Putty tape breaks real quick like this


Good butyl tape pulls like taffy and is gooey even in a 25 F degree pole barn…. You can pull a 3 to 6 foot stringer with it pending the room temp. I say good butyl tape as there are many brands out there and some are not really good. While they exhibit butyl attributes and may be real butyl, some harden up like a rock after a year. I had some roles of this and pitched them after I say that. Others the good kind, stays flexible and soft. I have gone through many orders of butyl and brands until I found a good one I know works. This good butyl on the roof is direct from Sunline from Nov 2003 and still very pliable while the putty tape is not.

Cleaning step 2. Now all that butyl and putty tape has to come off. Here your heat gun is again your friend to soften it up. I use a combination of plastic scrapers and the dull metal blade putty knife. I use the plastic one as much as I can to not scratch the siding and dig into the roof. But on the roof, that butyl comes off harder. The putty tape come off much easier. If you have to use much heat on the roof area, then you are somewhat more using the dull metal knife and be careful. The plastic scraper just gets too soft from the heat and bends. Once you get all the sealing tape off it looks like this


Now to cleaning Step 3. Here you need to get the roof and the siding down to “clean”. This part I learned the most from the Eternabond web site as their product goes on rubber roofs. On the siding, mineral spirits and a rag works well. You are not up against a time limit on the siding. The mineral spirits softens the left over putty tape and does not remove the paint. On the roof, you dab with the mineral spirits on a rag and much more elbow grease and work quick. You have to use enough mineral spirits to cut the butyl and Eternabond but you have to do a small area at a time and “do not let it soak in” or it will affect the rubber. Basically you use it quick, it will works to soften dissolve the butyl and Eternabond then wipe it off and bone dry, quickly. Here the plastic scraper come in handy too. Sometimes a thicker glob will be there and the rag does not cut it. Dab on some spirits, wait a short moment then then scrape. Clean up with the rag. You will get the hang and feel of how long is OK and not OK.

Here is the start.


Then more


And more. Notice the lifted rubber bubbles.


And done


The slide side flanges come off the same way. I want to point out, in this case I replaced this original putty tape with butyl sealing tape when I fixed the slide floor rot back in 2010. Notice the butyl is still very much stuck.


Notice the black dirt line. It stops at the edge of the butyl and does not have a passageway into the corner.


Now look at that same corner from March 2010. This was the original putty tape. See the dirt mark all the way to the corner. The putty tape shrinks, lifts off the off the siding and makes a channel for water to get right to the corner. Since seeing this, I have switched to just using butyl. The only down side other then it costs little more then putty tape is the exposed edge is a dirt sticky trap. A little Dicor non leveling caulk over the exposed edge and it solves the problem.


And use the plastic scraper, rag and mineral spirits to clean up the siding from the butyl tape. Add some heat if needed. Here use the plastic scraper is at all possible to prevent scratching the siding.


Next was to pull the windows out of the slide. The slide rear side window ended up getting extreme water running down the side of the slide and ended up inside the window. I made a temporary gutter above it to get by but I was concerned water made it into the wall. The good news, no water in the wall, it all went out the window drains. I am on a mission to replace all the putty tape on all the window units with butyl as a proactive measure against water intrusion. The camper is 13 years old since it was made, and if I replace now, I know I’m dry for another 13 at least. So these 4 slide ones came out now. I have about 50% of them on the camper done now. I also had to take the lower siding and fender boards off so I can work on the frame easier.


Now that the slide seal is out you may be able to see the out of square issue better. See here.
The left rear. Look at the unparallel gap between slide and camper.


The bottom rear. Almost 3/4"


The top rear. 3/16”


And the window issue when the slide goes in and out. This is more pronounced with the slide seal off. It seems the seal actually pushes the slide over a little being sandwiched in there as I would rip the seal out going past this window.


Here is the left front. See the mega unparallel gap.


Bottom 7/16”


Top 1 1/8”


Here are some pics of the frame area with the slide closed. Now the frame is exposed well to be able to do the frame repair when the time comes.






Next is was onto putty tape cleanup…. Another long tedious process. The windows are not that bad, but the flange moldings… they are harder. There is distortions in the metal from the screws that need to be flattened out after they are cleaned that slow down the cleaning process.

Dirty flange moldings


Dirty windows


On mine, Sunline has an order sticker on each window.


The moldings and windows clean up with the mineral spirits. Add heat when needed for globs of stuff to come off. I found using 2 rags worked best. One for mineral spirts first pass soak and scrub and the cleaner one for final mineral spirits and wipe clean. The 1st rag gets gooey after a while and while it can scrub, it does not wipe clean well.

Moldings cleaned up


Windows cleaned up


More in the next note on window install.
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 06:14 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,279
SUN #1830
Jim-Bev-2363 is an unknown quantity at this point
Thank you JohnB. A complete analysis of the situation, I think. Your sketch of the middle jack position was when I thought the "weakening" of the flange would have begun. With the amount of deflection so small it seems a non-issue now.


For whatever reason the beam bent it seems to be just that driver-side rail. Now the problem is the "fixin" of the problem. Maybe loading the TT body until everything is in alignment around the slide and then reinforce the beam to hold position, or something similar. Maybe making the lower web thicker and more gussets at the top. I would probably be tempted to overkill until you need a larger tow vehicle from all the extra steel, LOL!


I can understand, now, the lower flange flexing up on both sides of the main web. A rotating motion on the part of the rear could place same stresses on each side and in the same direction. It is for sure that I-Beam took quite a stress before you could see the damage.


With all that experience jacking your TT you can handle roadside pit-stops in NASCAR short order time. Now I'll let that bone go.
__________________
Beverly & Jim
Sebring, Florida
1991 T-2363 Solaris
Jim-Bev-2363 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2017, 08:41 AM   #30
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,643
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybgood View Post
John, more newbie questions.......

so based on your experience with slides, would you purchase another camper with a slide?
Hi John,

See here for the responses to all those good questions. You may get more answers from others then buried in the middle of this long technical thread.

http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...tml#post135414

Thanks

John
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2017, 09:28 PM   #31
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,643
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
We are back at it. It is putting in the windows day. More cleaning yet to do. Some putty tape to take off the camper wall and a final cleanup before putting the windows back in.

Here is where we are starting. All 4 window wall areas need to be cleaned up.


Since I’m doing this in the middle of winter, a little heat is your friend and the trusty plastic scraper.


Warm the putty tape and then scrape


With the Krystal coat siding, there are many little dimples in the siding finish. They do not scrape out well and need a chemical clean and elbow grease. Looks like this. This all has to come off.


Here is your scrub kit. Mineral spirts, gloves, 2 rags.


The first rag is your heavy rag as goo will form saturated in the rag after enough scrubbing. Put the chemical on a large area of the left over putty tape. That way it can soak in while you doing a small section. You can somewhat see here the goo of melted putty tape.


Once you have made it all the around the window and dissolved and rubbed off all you can with the first rag, then take the fresh clean rag with some more chemical and it will cut any re-dried goo and wipe off out clean. This is not yet the final clean, but the last cleaning with the mineral spirits.


Now that all the putty tape and butyl is gone, we have a final clean on both the window frames and the siding. The mineral spirits leaves an oil film that needs to come off. It may feel dry, but it is still there. There are various high flash cleaners out there, Eternaclean by Eternabond is one. High flash means, it works and evaporates off almost instantly. A heads up, do not use acetone on the siding, it will take the Krystal cote and paint off right down to shiny aluminum.

I have found for this product from PPG, called DX330. My son tipped me off on this one as he uses it to clean cars just before you paint them. It takes all the oil, wax and grime off and evaporates off right after you are done wiping. This is not practical for just one window as they sell it in a gallon, but if you have a lot of areas to do, and other projects, it works very well.





You need to wipe down all the window flanges and the camper wall where the butyl sealing tape will go.

Next up is the butyl sealing tape. This is the brand, Permatite, I have found that works the best short of Dicor butyl direct from Dicro. However the Dicro butyl is very thin and only 3/4 wide. It works on the roof OK, but windows, it is not thick enough or wide enough. I have not been able to find it sold by them any thicker or wider. Since I was doing all the windows over in the camper, I ordered a case of this Permatite. And since I needed it in multiple areas, I ordered wider tape. If you are just doing windows, 3/4 or 1” wide works. Since I am using it on slide flanges and other areas I have more waste on windows as I am using 1 1/4". I cannot seem to yet find Permatite in less than a case. Hopefully in time I can.

This is commercially packed and packed well. Zero damage. I bought some Dicor butyl from an Camping World and the shipping department was having a bad day. They put 6 roles of butyl with no special packing in a big box along with a water pump and water filter housings... All 6 roles were heavily damaged due to poor packing. Once these rolls are punch in on the sides, they are so stuck together they are not usable. I called Camping world and they stood behind it and credited me all 6 and apologized several times. I ordered this to replace it from Amazon.


The inside of the box, core centers, and silicon paper between each roll to protect them. And it was even double boxed.






If you are buying 6 roles worth, buying the case is cheaper and better quality.

Here is a link to Amazon which has various widths and thickness. I bought the 1/8” and it is a real 1/8, not thinner then
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ermatite+butyl

I also called Permatite direct to make sure this is the correct application of the product, it is and they sell a lot of it to RV manufactures as she told me. There web site is a little goofed right now, I tried to link the tech sheet but it keeps linking butyl caulk and not the tape. There is a software error on their site somewhere. I use to be able to get the tech sheet.
250-H Butyl Tape | Permatite

Here is the first window taped ready to go in.


I used 2, 1/4” wood shims on the frame base before putting the window up. You really have to watch and center in the opening. If it is cold out, I heat the tape on the window and the siding to make it easier to use. This tape really sticks where you put it. You need a helper outside while you are inside. I put the window up on the shims and let it rest on the frame but not touch the siding. Then Cindy, my helper, held the window while I went inside.


After centering the window inside, Cindy pushed it to the wall and I started putting the inside flange screws in. Start a few on opposite sides to make sure the holes in the flange and the window frame all lines up. Then in sort of a torque pattern moving back and forth evenly to press the window even on all sides as I tightened them down.


Then onto the other windows doing the same thing. On on corrugated siding I add filler strips in the depressions. And yes it uses more tape, but there is no question it is sealed. Some of the factory ones as very thin on the high spots. And…you peel the release paper off just before you put the widow in.




When the window is in, then trim the excess butyl. Come summer time in the high heat, this will ozz some more. If it gets to much, then just trim it off again. Unless you are installing in the high heat of summer, this is ozz'ing will happen. And it will still even happen, just not and much.


Plastic scraper to trim


And lift away or scrape as needed.


As I was cleaning up the walls for the windows, I happened to notice this. Putty tape on the slide flange behind the rubber slide seal. It shrinks and then cracks. I’ll deal with this later. I’m showing this so you know what to look for. If this happens in the corners moldings or directly were water hits areas often, then odds are favorable water may get in. If you see these, Dicor non leveling caulk is a method to seal it and buy time until the moldings can be taken off and new butyl tape put on.




All for now. The next area is to start the planning of the frame fix. More that topic soon.

Thanks

John

PS, if you need more help on replacing windows, cargo doors etc, this post has more on the topic. This should take you to the window area. http://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f7...tml#post131769
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2017, 10:39 AM   #32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,279
SUN #1830
Jim-Bev-2363 is an unknown quantity at this point
Great instructional. Will the cleaners you used also help with silicone precious owners used? using silicone at edges of trim/windows/lights can make resealing a real pain.


Jim
__________________
Beverly & Jim
Sebring, Florida
1991 T-2363 Solaris
Jim-Bev-2363 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2017, 01:01 PM   #33
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,643
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363 View Post
Great instructional. Will the cleaners you used also help with silicone precious owners used? using silicone at edges of trim/windows/lights can make resealing a real pain.

Jim
Hi Jim, Thanks for the good words.

Silly cone on the camper... I have not tried to get silicone off a camper before. So I do not know what cleaners will work in it. Knowing the properties of silicone, I can imagine it is not easy. And on Krystal coat siding with the little miniature dimples, it may be really difficulty. Sorry I can't help on this one.

For those following along and not knowing the good and bad of silicone on a camper, here are the good and the bad.

The Good:

Silicone is a good product when used in the right application. I know of only 4 places on a camper where the product is good to use it for.

1. In the shower stall sealing the retractable Shub Shower screen door track or other shower doors to the base of the shower.

2. In wire nuts buried in the walls or on connections or holes through the floor under the camper to seal out water and or insects.

3. On the top 2 corners of a slide seal, to waterproof the rubber gasket to the slide flange around the 90 degree bend. This is about a total of 4 to 6" on each corner. Dicro in this location is not a good application due to it getting soft under heat and pressure and then turning into a sticky mess over time. Sunline used silicone in this location and I never understood why until I tried Dicro once. Never again....

4. Sunline used silicone to "lock" the sliding door rolling hardware from the trolley to the door. This is a 1/4 turn kind of latch that they sort of glued in place with silicone. Road vibration can and have opened up those latches and it seems that was what they found to overcome the problem.

Those are the 3 that I know of. There may be a few others.

The bad:

Where it is not a good or the best application is on roof flanges / moldings / gutters sealing to the roof or corner moldings, cargo doors, entry door seals etc. to the outside walls. Why? The product will stick the first time and the second and third application. But, silicone after 1 or 2 years can and will peel away or detach. It does not seem to like the hot and cold extremes along with road vibration on rigid objects and stay bonded. It is a short term caulk in this application. And when it comes time to take it off, it is very difficult. It is so slippery, trying to use the right caulk over the top then will not stick, even if you scraped it to what was thought clean. The only thing that seems to like to stick to it, is more silicone.

Maybe one of our SOC members have dealt with trying to get it off and had some level of success, hopefully they can post how they did it.

Thanks

John
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2017, 04:03 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,279
SUN #1830
Jim-Bev-2363 is an unknown quantity at this point
JohnB, Nothing seemed to get all the silly-cone. At least it feels like there is still the thin film left. Frustration made me think of sanding to bare metal but that that would be a real project, LOL! Maybe one day a super-duper, easy to use, wipe it off kind of cleaner. I still have hope.
__________________
Beverly & Jim
Sebring, Florida
1991 T-2363 Solaris
Jim-Bev-2363 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 06:12 PM   #35
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,643
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
The planning stages are starting to come together. Still not totally completed with the fix plan, but much closer.

Part of the fix was to understand what the mechanical properties of the steel that the frame was made from. This is needed to know how strong the original frame was that bent and to make the fix as strong and stronger along with how to use the correct welding process (rod).

Normally you can call the camper manufacture and get this info, but unfortunately in this case Sunline is no longer. So I took 2 approaches to back into the answer. Testing the steel itself and contacting Lippert Components who was the subcontractor for Sunline to make the frame.

In industry you generally send a sample of the steel you want to test to a metallurgical lab and they can easily scan and test the sample to back into what steel it was made from and at what temper. That cost can be significant for an individual and I was leaving this option to the last resort. So…, I created my own deflection versus load test.

Here is the test, sort of a “jury rig” but the science is sound. This is a simple bending test where you add a known weight pulling on a known size sample and measure the deflection (amount of movement) until the sample crosses over into what we call yield. When you reach the yield limit, it means the metal will bend and stay bent when you remove the force that is causing the bending.

First you need a sample. I picked the rear area of the frame where I could get at it easy to repair and it was not in a supercritical area. This is from the lower flange of the main I beam frame rail at the very back of the camper. Here you can see the piece 1” by 5 1/2” long to get a usable 4” long working sample.


sample removed


I filed and trimmed the sample to an exact width as we need this for a calculation later on in the test. Then you need a clamp to hold the sample. In this case we are creating a canterlivered beam test. The clamps are 2 large pieces of metal bolted together I had laying around and put it in a vise. A dial indicator is added to measure the deflection (movement) of the steel sample in 3 place decimal. The total deflection of the bend at a known point is used later in a calculation along with the weight (force).


Indicator at 3”, and force at 4”


And a 5 gallon bucket to create the known force, water, and we will add it in stages.


Not knowing what grade steel this was, I made an estimation this was hot rolled low carbon steel. (ASTM A36) which is common in this type of application. Well it was actually much better than A36 as I found out later. With the steel being stronger than A36, I found I needed more weight than 5 gallons of water. I overcame this by adding pieces of steel that were weighed and calculated for weight by size. Here are the steel pieces. I had to use all of them.


I added 2 quarts of water at a time to the bucket per test. This was at a known temperature (48F) for the load (force). Knowing the weight of the bucket and the wire, I kept adding 2 quarts of water and using the indicator to to measure the deflection per 2 quarts or per piece of steel.

Eventually… I reached the yield point and had good test data. It took 3 repeats of the test to get this right. The first 2 tests had a large amount of error in them and I never bent the sample. The clamp was slipping ever so slightly not allowing the metal to stretch and bend like it was supposed to at the microscopic level. Thanks to SOC member Chuck VA for helping me point to the clamp when the data was not coming up right. He said, check the clamp, I did and sure enough it was slipping. Here is when we almost reached yield at 82.3 lb. on test 29 with 0.1275” of total deflection. The bucket was close to it limits… 5 gallons weighs 41.5 lb and I had to almost double the weight in the bucket.


A look inside the bucket. Water and steel


On the 29 tests up to this point, the average I would get is 0.0015” deflection per pound added. Once I reached test 30 with 86.3 lb and 0.1335” total deflection, the movement had just started to no longer be the same for the amount of weight added. With test 31, the movement started to grow with no more weight added. It was in what we call the plastic deformation state. It stopped bending after a few seconds so I went on some more.

On test 32, the deflection was moving a lot more. Were where past the yield limit. finally....For test 32, after 30 seconds I was at 0.180” of total movement or 0.009” per pound of deflection and it would not stop. So I stopped the test. The sample was now permanently bent and will not go back to straight.

Taking this deflection and force numbers from the test, combined with the exact size of the metal sample, you use a bending stress formula to back into the yield stress you were seeing which came out in the high 60,000psi range. There is some error in the test but it showed me what league of steel we were dealing with. And that this was not A36 steel which is common. This is actually higher strength steel.

As a double check to confirm which steel the frame was made from, I called tech service at Lippert Components in Elkhart IN. They were very willing to help me, just they needed the serial number of my camper frame. H’mm, I told them I have I never seen a serial number with 8 digits on a plate or stamped in but I said I will go and check. They could not help much without the number. Well there is no number on my frame up front on the main frame rails like he was stating. So I sort of struck out at the Elkhart location.

Then I thought to try the actual Lippert plant itself in Denver Pa. near the old Sunline plant who made the frame so I called them. It seems this location is now very scaled back with a skeleton crew and only the plant manager and the lady who answered the phone that was even with them back in Oct. 2003 when my camper was assembled. They have no engineering there to look anything up. Thinking quick, I asked what steel do they use today on your 10” x 9 lb frame rails? She went and talked to the plant manager and came back with, they no longer use the 10 x 9 lb steel but they do use 10” x 8lb and they make a 12”. She said they use ASTM A529-14-50. Bingo!!! That was what I was after.

A529-50 is high strength low carbon steel with a yield stress of 50,000psi minimum. This compares to the test I did. Mine has some error in it and that spec is the minimum so it can be higher. Now I know what welding rod to use and what type of steel to make the new fix out of. And if I cannot get A529-50 I can use one with similar mechanical properties such as A572-50 which is high strength low alloy (HSLA) and is very similar.

Next is to confirm in my head at least, what caused the failure in the first place and then how to create a fix that will solve the issue and be stronger for the future. The more I think back on this and align the dates, I remember we ended up with a dent in the siding of the slide on the trip to Cowanesque Park in PA. We were heading southwest on the infamous I-88 pot hole central road at that time in 2010. You can see here we store our swivel rocker upside down for travel so it does not go flying while towing. The metal legs are up. We have been using this position since we bought it in late 2007 and had not had a problem with it.

It tucks in behind the slide


Here you can see the side of the slide, and the dent




Now more odd, the swivel metal legs are 24” off the floor.


Yet the dent is 16” off the floor, 8 inches lower in elevation away from the metal chair feet


When we arrived at camp that trip, the chair was jostled around some but still with the armrests down and the feet were up like normal. And there was this dent in the side of the side I saw when the slide was out. I do not exactly know how, but it appears the bouncing on I-88 was hard enough to bounce that chair up off the floor in such a way, the metal feet hit the slide and then bounced it-self back down. And this is the same side of the camper with the bent frame. It must have been a heck of a ride back there…

At this point in this investigation and repair, I am using the thought concepts that from hitting large road bumps (pot holes ect) at highway speeds created one or several very large impact forces on the back of the camper and bounced the back of the camper very hard. This event or series of them damaged the lower flange of the main frame rail under the slide just behind the spring hanger. That location is the weakest point on the frame when this type of event would of happened. At that time, the lower flange damage could of just started. This is backed up by pictures over time which were progressively worse. Due to the way I beam shapes fail, once this lower flange is compromised, normal frame deflections from towing can act on this damaged section and over time, make it worse. And the main frame rail can now bend at this location. We call this effect "ratcheting" in the failure analysis world. It keeps bending a very small amount each time the frame is flexed or when a certain magnitude of deflection is reached. I am not 100% sure I-88 did this, but it for sure would of advanced it if it did not start it.

Now to the fix. I’ll start this in the next reply.
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 06:14 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
jim44646's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,125
SUN #4040
jim44646 is an unknown quantity at this point
The silicone removers I've used don't work that great on silicone but they will soften and remove paint. Don't harm most plastics.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
__________________
Jim and DW Darlene
2001 T-2553 Sunline Solaris
2006 GMC Sierra Duramax 2500HD 4X4
Firestone Transforce AT tires
Reese Dual Cam Sway Control
jim44646 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2017, 07:15 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,279
SUN #1830
Jim-Bev-2363 is an unknown quantity at this point
Jim, Silicone is a baaaad thing.


JohnB, "IF" your chair moved that much, I would wonder how how much the slide moved. The weight of the chair made a ding. The weight of the slide bent the frame. Should slides be captured in place some how? ...... I think you were lucky the chair didn't go thru the window.
__________________
Beverly & Jim
Sebring, Florida
1991 T-2363 Solaris
Jim-Bev-2363 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2017, 08:11 AM   #38
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,643
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim-Bev-2363 View Post
Jim, Silicone is a baaaad thing.


JohnB, "IF" your chair moved that much, I would wonder how how much the slide moved. The weight of the chair made a ding. The weight of the slide bent the frame. Should slides be captured in place some how? ...... I think you were lucky the chair didn't go thru the window.
Hi Jim,

The slide is mechanically trapped from becoming totally airborne unrestricted by the aluminum flange in the slide opening. I know from measuring that the slide can lift up, approx 1" maybe a little more or less when it is extended out. When it come in to the camper, that 1" gests restricted even less, now maybe 1/8" to 1/4" max by the slide arms being retracted and they are holding the slide wall down. When the slide is out, the arms can flex and I can get the 1" lift. If it went up more than the 1" clearance, the slide flange would hit the roof of the slide and stop it. The slide arms keep it pulled in tight against the camper and since they are in, they help hold it from raising up. In may case I use top slide prop rods (transit bars) but they do fall out every now and then.

And yes, if the camper impacted hard on the pothole, that fast dynamic action of the camper mass going up at the back of the camper does come down as hard. I doubt the camper ever left the ground, but I would not be shocked if the frame flex reached it's limits and went into the yield condition.

The chair going out the window... while it was bad, I "hope" not that bad.... That said, the chair took a tumble of some kind enough to bounce it 90 degrees with the feet towards the slide and then bounce it back to fall back down. I do not "think" it was all in one bump, more like a series of big bumps bouncing it around. Now after thinking about this, I better start looking at a pull strap something to hold it down. I had that on our T2499 rolling office chair or it would go flying across the camper.

Thanks

John
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2017, 06:13 PM   #39
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,643
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
Here is a start of the “fix it” plan. There are 3 main objectives to accomplish.

1. Straighten the frame where it is bent to get the slide opening back to being square.
2. Repair the lower flange damage and strengthen the frame back to original while increasing the strength to help not have this problem again.
3. Have the repair and upgrade in strength not create new problems.

The first item to get the frame back straight only has a few options.

Replacing the entire frame rail is doable, but a major undertaking. I may save this option for a future total rebuild of the camper.

Cold working the frame rail to bend it back into being straight and repair from here. This option means you need to over bend the frame rail to get it to hold straight. If the camper was not on top of the frame, this would be more doable, bending the frame up above straight has concerns of flexing the camper structure too much. This method was not picked at this time.

Do an in place correction on the frame to allow it to bend back straight and then reinforce the frame rail. I came up with a method on how to do this I feel good about and this is the route I am taking. Basically, I will cut the frame at the bend location and raise the back of the camper up to being frame straight. Then fix the saw cut area. I know that sounds like a lot, but in this case, it is not going to be that bad for me and what I have in my shop to work with. The repair of the saw cut leads to a method that brings the frame back to original strength and allows it to strengthen the whole area above the original.

The last part I am still working through is point 3. How to blend the repair of increased strength back into the original frame and not create a new problem in the transition area back to the original frame. I have a concept to start with that hopefully by the end of this week I will have confirmed, this is the method, and then get steel on order.

I know everyone is not into drawings so I will do this in pictures and a few drawings to get the point across. I am open to any comments as this makes me think this over to not miss something. So comment away.

First is the saw cut. This picture shows the saw cut location. I will put a 1/2" stop drill hole, approx. 1 1/4” down from the top flange. This leaves the top flange intact which is a large contributor to the strength of the frame. Using a stop drill hole is a common repair method on saw cuts or the end of cracks to help ward off future cracking of the steel along the crack or saw line. The stress stops at the hole, most times unless the stress is too massive.

Here is the outside of the frame. The yellow line is the saw cut. The red shapes are the formed angle plate inside and outside to span the saw cut area and strengthen this area.

Here is the inside of the frame.



That outside picture gets busy with details so now I need to switch to a drawing to get more specific. I have 3 options of this repair and at this time, I have picked option 2 as the method to cover all areas. A cross section of the frame looks like this.


The green I beam shape is the original setup. The red formed angle plates are inside and outside of the frame. The outside angle plate is 60 inches long, split 30” upstream and 30” downstream of the saw cut. The inside plate is 54 inches long, split 24” upstream and 30” downstream of the saw cut as the enclosed tank compartment does not allow the 30”. These plates will be bolted together and through the main frame rail. Bolting was picked for 3 reasons; too much heat welding with the camper on top which will cause damage to the underside of the camper, no good access to weld the top part of the angle plates and fatigue stress cracks do not tear through a bolted connection like they can through a welded connection.

The pinkish color, are the 2, 1/4 x 3” wide flat bar shapes on an angle and are part of the lower flange reinforcement inside and outside the frame. These are full length from the axle center equalizer area to the end of the frame and will stiffen up the lower flange area from bending. This will replace my original frame flexing gussets. These side angle gussets will also add additional strength to not buckle the lower flange in the future.

The orange color 1/4 x 3.5” wide flat bar is also a lower flange reinforcement. This flat bar is full length from the axle center equalizer area to the end of the frame and will stiffen up the lower flange area where it was cut and the metal sample removed. It will also add additional strength to not buckle the lower flange and raise the entire strength of the system for the future.

The door side of the camper will also get the lower flange reinforcements of the 2, 1/4 x 3” wide flat bar shapes on an angle, and the 1/4 x 3.5” wide flat bar are lower flange reinforcement. The door side is still straight now, however with the slide side being stronger and more rigid in strength, I need to balance the camper left to right to ward off any new frame twisting that may occur with a weaker side.

I will use either the A529-50 or the A572-50 grade of steel pending availability.

While I am sorting out the last details of the correction, I started to prep the camper for the repair. The rear hanger 1/4 x 2 x 24” long added gusset support to stop hanger flex and web cracking needed to be removed. I need to somewhat surgically remove that flat bar while not cutting deeply into the frame. Here are my tools of choice. Large, medium and small cutting tools and a manually operated cold chisel.


You need to cut the stitch welds so the bar will just about fall off. There are thin cut off wheels that go in these grinders that can cut through the weld cleanly and quickly.


Here is the start of the cutting


And then it being off


Next is an outrigger support that helps hold the camper to the frame. This will need to be put back on once the reinforcement plates are added.


At the back of the camper is a welded on plate to the lower flange for a stabilizer jack. This has to come off and be remounted after the lower flange is corrected.


Here it is off


Now to clean up the leftover weld on the frame and buff off the rust to later be treated for corrosion. I have found these wire brush wheels on the end of a 4 1/2 or 7” grinder can do quick work of this on rust. They work great. Just for sure have a full face shield and safety glasses on as “stuff” is coming off quickly from the frame.




The inside of the frame rail cleanup was a lot more manual. Had to use the standard hand wire brush in many of the locations as the 4 1/2" grinder would not fit.

Now that the frame is cleaned up I can start the process of getting the frame setup for the repair. See here.


A closer view

The cut line is the vertical chalk line right after the rear spring hanger. There is also a heavy angle iron clamped across the camper to tie the 2 frame rails together so nothing moves after the saw cut and before the repair is added.

In order to do the saw cut, I will support the back of the camper and the cut area with bottle jacks and stands. The axles have wood cribbing and steel blocks under the axle seats which will help load the frame to weight bearing loads and deflection and actually holding the camper with the wheels off. Jack stands are added for backup safety.

Once the cut is done, a bottle jack at the back of the camper will lift the back end of the frame until a string line across bottom of the frame and up at the roof line come back to straight. The frame will pivot at the frame cut line. This will be approx. 2 3/8” to 2 5/8” lift at the back of the frame. I tried this today to confirm and while the entire frame lifted with no saw cut, that is the range I will be in. Once the frame is leveled, shims on the jack stands will be added to secure the frame from moving.

Two formed angle plates will be added across the saw cut area. The saw cut will be ground for a full penetration weld prep. The inside plate will be added and partly bolted to the main frame rail at this point. Once the inside plate is in place, a vertical weld using 70ksi weld rod will be made up the saw cut line. This weld will attach to the inside plate and the 2 beam sections. The weld will then be ground and polished to remove stress risers. The weld area will be primed and painted to prevent rust between the plates.

The preprainted outer plate will then be added and the frame drilled in conjunction with the inside plate to accept the 1/2" bolts. This connection will now be strong enough to remove the jacks and stands holding the back of the camper frame rail.

The bottom 1/4 x 3.5” flat bar will be welded to the lower flange first and then the inside and outside 1/4" x 3 flat bars will be welded on an angle to the lower flange and the outside formed angle plate. All the areas will be painted. Dicor caulking will be used along the gaps between the stitch welds to keep road grime out of getting between/behind the lower angle plates.

Then outrigger and the rear stabilizer plate will be put back on. The door side of the main frame rail will get the lower flange flat bars added to that side to prevent an out of balance strength frame.

That should wrap up the frame repair, then onto putting the rest of the camper back together.... This is the plan short of any final touches.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

John
__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2017, 07:17 PM   #40
Moderator
 
JohnB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 12,643
SUN #89
JohnB is on a distinguished road
I started to clean up some of the rust on the frame. On the door side frame rail, once clean up that area I saw the start of a ripple in the lower flange. H’mm, it started on this side too? Just not as much and the frame rail is still straight. This will get fixed when I reinforce this side.

Here are pictures of the slight ripple. If you find this on your frame behind the rear axle hanger, this is the time to address it before bigger issues come over time.



At the 3 1/2" mark is the center of the ripple bump


Looking at the top


Holding a straight edge up against the rippled area so you can see it maybe a little better.


On the rust, we had 3 really warm days last week so I took advantage of the temperatures and treated the rust on the back end of the frame. This is rust converter, it stops the chemical reaction of rusting. This is step 1 in a many step process.

The converter is a cream colored liquid that changes colors when the rust conversion process starts. Here with the camera flash on, it looks purple. It is still wet here.






Then it turns black the next morning.


And it is still changing colors. It takes a few days to do the complete conversion. Then when the temperatures get warm enough again, onto the next 4 steps.

I finished sorting out making the frame repair transition from reinforced frame back to original frame with fatigue stress in mind. Over the weekend I finished up the detail part drawings of the splice plates and sent them to the fab shop. They are now hunting for the high strength steel to make the plates and obtain the flat bar stock. Hope to hear back from them this week on what they can locate.

Thanks

John
__________________

__________________
Current Sunlines: 2004 T310SR, 2004 T1950, 2004 T2475, 2007 T2499, 2004 T317SR
Prior Sunlines: 2004 T2499 - Fern Blue
2005 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.8L V10 W/ 4.10 rear axle, CC, Short Bed, SRW. Reese HP trunnion bar hitch W/ HP DC

Google Custom Search For Sunline Owners Club
JohnB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Winter Project - Roof Repair (Picture heavy) JohnB Repairs and Maintenance 105 06-14-2023 12:25 PM
My first major repair project. j52wf Repairs and Maintenance 9 04-20-2016 08:58 PM
Let the floor repair fun begin! (Picture heavy) EMD_Driver Repairs and Maintenance 73 01-02-2013 01:56 AM
Sunline plant opening???? Poppy & Nana Sunline Community 17 02-17-2007 11:26 AM
Heavy Duty Receiver Hitch emam Modifications 2 01-09-2007 01:25 AM


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Sunline RV or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:43 PM.


×