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Old 02-08-2016, 09:14 PM   #41
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Wow, we're very impressed and thankful. After much debate, we sold our T1950 this fall. It was a very hard decision, but based on our age, health, and lack of space to do repairs, we made, what I see now, as the right decision.

snip..
As much as we loved our "Leap of Faith", I'm more confident now that we could never have done the extensive repairs that you have undertaken. So now, Granddad Jim sits at home on his computer doing genealogy and Nana Anne has her new tent and new Equinox and still enjoying the wonderful outdoors.

Thank you Sunliner for many many happy years!

Anne and Jim
Hi Jim,

Thanks for the good words and sorry about your camper. I know they are hard to part with.

A heads up!! If Nana Anne is heading to the tent, investigate getting her a good theramrest camping mattress. Many moons ago, I upgraded from the thin foam thing to a real thermarest and my body is still thanking me... Something about the ground and ones back that does not exactly get along with each other with out a good mattress between the two...

Therm-a-Rest Mattresses - providing lasting comfort for over 35 years. Scroll down to the bottom to the guide "Find the right mattress" They have many kinds now. Trust me, you will be a hero with the wife for getting here one if she is going back to the tent. They sel them on line in many places, Amazon, REI, Gander Mountain, or other higher end camping stores.

Good luck

John
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Old 02-16-2016, 09:44 PM   #42
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Congrats Ben, on your new trailer! Glad to see your dad started you off right in the Sunline world, by literally digging in. Between fixing it like this and keeping it inside, it should last a long time now.

I checked on mine a few weeks ago and found water dripping from the ceiling of the building, onto the floor between the trailers. Wasn't much, and due to above freezing temps melting snow on the roof. Still shouldn't be leaking, could have been more from condensation on the inside for all i know, but it was a good reminder to make sure the trailer roof is sealed up tight even when stored inside.
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Old 02-17-2016, 08:41 AM   #43
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Wow! great read John, thanks (as usual) for all the photos!
It's looking really good, the walk-on roof will be a practical plus.

At this point, I don't think anyone should ever should ever be disappointed to find some water damage after purchasing a camper. First, the way many of these manufacturers construct the roofing almost guarantees it, second, it's so difficult to find, especially when water intrusion isn't the only thing your dealing with during a sale. Time constraints are always a factor as well.
So many of us on this site have gone over this topic again and again for years and it still rears it's ugly head even when the most knowledgeable and experienced among us are involved. It's a tough issue, period.

One thing I wanted to mention about the roofing rubber stopping at the trim rail and not extending down the back as it does on the sides. You see how the front of the roof ends on a flat plane and then the aluminum siding continues to go over and down the front? On our 92 Solaris, the back was done the same way. It wasn't until a few years later that Sunline redesigned the back of the roof to make a squared off style which would allow the Dicor roofing to drop down vertically, so maybe, the thinking was "We didn't (couldn't) drop it over the back all these years, why start now?". I don't know, maybe that's why it was done that way.

Rich
In 2000 Sunline went with a new design to their roof and rafters. The new rafters were made lighter. They we're basically firing strips stapled and glued together with pieces of scrap paneling or luan that was left over. The old rafters were 2x4 that were cut on the ends to make the curve. They were much stronger and better BUT more expensive to make and heavier. I personally
Liked the look of the old style roofs, especially the back end where they didn't look boxy.
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Old 02-17-2016, 06:52 PM   #44
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In 2000 Sunline went with a new design to their roof and rafters. The new rafters were made lighter. They we're basically firing strips stapled and glued together with pieces of scrap paneling or luan that was left over. The old rafters were 2x4 that were cut on the ends to make the curve. They were much stronger and better BUT more expensive to make and heavier. I personally
Liked the look of the old style roofs, especially the back end where they didn't look boxy.
H'mm, did not now that, never thought about it "when" the manufacturing style changed. Learn something new every day here on SOC!! Thanks for the info.
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Old 02-18-2016, 02:36 PM   #45
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In 2000 Sunline went with a new design to their roof and rafters. The new rafters were made lighter. They we're basically firing strips stapled and glued together with pieces of scrap paneling or luan that was left over. The old rafters were 2x4 that were cut on the ends to make the curve. They were much stronger and better BUT more expensive to make and heavier. I personally
Liked the look of the old style roofs, especially the back end where they didn't look boxy.
As I recall, they only started the arched shape in like '99. The solid curved rafters couldn't have been around very long since they were all straight for a very long time.
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Old 02-18-2016, 04:37 PM   #46
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As I recall, they only started the arched shape in like '99. The solid curved rafters couldn't have been around very long since they were all straight for a very long time.
Jon,

I believe you are right. I remember our 1999 Solaris T-2670 had a flat roof and a neighbor had a 2000 Sunline Solaris that had the arched roof.
I know this because I remember admiring his roof and wishing we had the arched roof.
I believe our 1999 Sunline was built in the 1st Qtr of 1999, so they could have changed to the arched roof some time mid 1999 or maybe with the 2000 model year change.
I'm sure if I gave you the VIN you could tell me exactly when and where it was build

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Old 02-18-2016, 05:36 PM   #47
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Jon,

I believe you are right. I remember our 1999 Solaris T-2670 had a flat roof and a neighbor had a 2000 Sunline Solaris that had the arched roof.
I know this because I remember admiring his roof and wishing we had the arched roof.
I believe our 1999 Sunline was built in the 1st Qtr of 1999, so they could have changed to the arched roof some time mid 1999 or maybe with the 2000 model year change.
I'm sure if I gave you the VIN you could tell me exactly when and where it was build

Hutch
Please allow me to repeat what I already posted. Sunline started the new rafter system with the model year 2000. Please take a look at the 1999 & 2000 literature. You will notice the difference immediately. Also if you look at the pages where they show you how the product is built you are able to see both rafters. They made quite a few changes to the 2000 model year and some were not good. If you think back all pre 2000 model years had very few problems with their decals peeling prematurely. They also cut back on the thickness of their dinette cushions from 6 inches to 4 inches. Most people didn't notice these cost cutting changes but by the time they went under it was evident Sunline was not the trailer it once was. I really hated when they started omitting Windows or putting in smaller ones in the 2006 models. If you want to see just how much they changed look at a brochure from the late eighties and see for yourself how beautiful they were. The Seville was a sight to behold! Ah the good ole days!!
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Old 02-18-2016, 08:06 PM   #48
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Snip...
Sunline started the new rafter system with the model year 2000. Please take a look at the 1999 & 2000 literature. You will notice the difference immediately. Also if you look at the pages where they show you how the product is built you are able to see both rafters.
Thanks for the info

Just looked. In 99 on page 11 all ducted AC models had 2 x 4 rafters, the other 2 x 3.

Then come year 2000, page 3, radius truss rafters for maximum slope started showing up. On page 1 of the year 2000 are 3 gentlemen I have seen in the pics before but do not really know who they are. That back ground pic oddly had the 2 x 4 rafters.

While I can see the truss rafter to save weight, don't know about the maximum run off statement.

Many other RV manufactures also went to the truss style. This is one of my camping buds, Jayco Eagle. This was one of the first years they started using TPO roofing material and they did not do the edge caulking right. This was a 2 year old camper the time that pic was took. Jayco stood behind it have to give them credit for that. They paid for the total repair. I "think" this is 2003 to 2004 camper. Not any newer as we had our new 2004 T2499 when we camped with him.


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Old 02-18-2016, 08:25 PM   #49
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I'm sure if I gave you the VIN you could tell me exactly when and where it was build
Well, maybe a few years ago...I'm slipping a lot these days. I still do alright with identifying floorplans and years, but a lot of the misc. details are getting fuzzy.

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Please allow me to repeat what I already posted. Sunline started the new rafter system with the model year 2000. Please take a look at the 1999 & 2000 literature. You will notice the difference immediately. Also if you look at the pages where they show you how the product is built you are able to see both rafters. They made quite a few changes to the 2000 model year and some were not good. If you think back all pre 2000 model years had very few problems with their decals peeling prematurely. They also cut back on the thickness of their dinette cushions from 6 inches to 4 inches. Most people didn't notice these cost cutting changes but by the time they went under it was evident Sunline was not the trailer it once was. I really hated when they started omitting Windows or putting in smaller ones in the 2006 models. If you want to see just how much they changed look at a brochure from the late eighties and see for yourself how beautiful they were. The Seville was a sight to behold! Ah the good ole days!!
Agreed. The 2000-01 decals were a unique experiment with the shade shifter vinyl, and it obviously didn't weather well. The '02-'05 was a little better but not much. Luckily things seemed to improve in 2006 though.

That said, even though that main decal had the most visibility, it's worth noting that the rest of the decals on the trailer weren't all that bad. The only exception is on a SE fiberglass trailer, the decals just didn't stick well to that. But, that's not a Sunline specific problem.

I've spent more time staring at the brochures and at pictures of the trailers than probably anyone else here. I sure wouldn't want a Seville. Velour upholstery? No thanks haha.

The window delete thing was not pure cost. Customers complained about having condensation from the bed window drip down onto their heads at night, so they deleted the window and put the headboard in instead. It's possible some other windows were deleted due to cost. The front windows changed in 2003 to the non-opening design that integrated the rock guard, not so much because of cost, but because it was less leak prone. The overall change from Hehr to Kinro windows is something I can't explain.

A similar change was made in 1992/97 when they went from square corner to radius corner Hehr windows. The old square corners were very prone to leaking and not nearly as well built, even though some may see it as getting smaller windows with less ventilation. As I recall, radius corner windows first appeared in 1983 in limited models and were progressively introduced into the lineup until full integration for MY1997.

I don't recall my '90s Sunlines having 6" dinette foam. Those would be huge.

Back on the subject of rafters though, I'm confused about your earlier statement. I confirmed my suspicion that the curved rafters started in '99 (MY2000). You said they went to partial/constructed rafters in 2000 and were solid wood radius prior to that, yet they weren't radius prior to that. When did the transition to the lightweight rafters actually happen?
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Old 02-19-2016, 06:28 AM   #50
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Well, maybe a few years ago...I'm slipping a lot these days. I still do alright with identifying floorplans and years, but a lot of the misc. details are getting fuzzy.



Agreed. The 2000-01 decals were a unique experiment with the shade shifter vinyl, and it obviously didn't weather well. The '02-'05 was a little better but not much. Luckily things seemed to improve in 2006 though.

That said, even though that main decal had the most visibility, it's worth noting that the rest of the decals on the trailer weren't all that bad. The only exception is on a SE fiberglass trailer, the decals just didn't stick well to that. But, that's not a Sunline specific problem.

I've spent more time staring at the brochures and at pictures of the trailers than probably anyone else here. I sure wouldn't want a Seville. Velour upholstery? No thanks haha.

The window delete thing was not pure cost. Customers complained about having condensation from the bed window drip down onto their heads at night, so they deleted the window and put the headboard in instead. It's possible some other windows were deleted due to cost. The front windows changed in 2003 to the non-opening design that integrated the rock guard, not so much because of cost, but because it was less leak prone. The overall change from Hehr to Kinro windows is something I can't explain.

A similar change was made in 1992/97 when they went from square corner to radius corner Hehr windows. The old square corners were very prone to leaking and not nearly as well built, even though some may see it as getting smaller windows with less ventilation. As I recall, radius corner windows first appeared in 1983 in limited models and were progressively introduced into the lineup until full integration for MY1997.

I don't recall my '90s Sunlines having 6" dinette foam. Those would be huge.

Back on the subject of rafters though, I'm confused about your earlier statement. I confirmed my suspicion that the curved rafters started in '99 (MY2000). You said they went to partial/constructed rafters in 2000 and were solid wood radius prior to that, yet they weren't radius prior to that. When did the transition to the lightweight rafters actually happen?
The transition to the new rafters started with the 2000 models. The new models started being built in the summer of 1999. The pictures on the front cover of the 2000 brochure are a profile of the company through the years. On page(2) of the brochure explains all the photos. Yes, you are correct the dinette cushions were very thick but also very comfortable and heavy.
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Old 02-19-2016, 07:14 AM   #51
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Thanks for the info

Just looked. In 99 on page 11 all ducted AC models had 2 x 4 rafters, the other 2 x 3.

Then come year 2000, page 3, radius truss rafters for maximum slope started showing up. On page 1 of the year 2000 are 3 gentlemen I have seen in the pics before but do not really know who they are. That back ground pic oddly had the 2 x 4 rafters.

While I can see the truss rafter to save weight, don't know about the maximum run off statement.
Many other RV manufactures also went to the truss style. This is one of my camping buds, Jayco Eagle. This was one of the first years they started using TPO roofing material and they did not do the edge caulking right. This was a 2 year old camper the time that pic was took. Jayco stood behind it have to give them credit for that. They paid for the total repair. I "think" this is 2003 to 2004 camper. Not any newer as we had our new 2004 T2499 when we camped with him.


The evolution of the RV industry continues. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not.
John, The three men on the cover of the 2000 brochure were the owners of Sunline! Lou Martin (since 1964), W. Larry Lawerence ( since 197, and John Zimmerman (since 1975) the picture of the roof rafters was a trailer on the assembly line in the 1980s.
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:52 AM   #52
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John, The three men on the cover of the 2000 brochure were the owners of Sunline! Lou Martin (since 1964), W. Larry Lawerence ( since 197, and John Zimmerman (since 1975) the picture of the roof rafters was a trailer on the assembly line in the 1980s.
Trivia question for ya...where did Larry and John come from prior to their time at Sunline?
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Old 02-19-2016, 10:53 AM   #53
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Trivia question for ya...where did Larry and John come from prior to their time at Sunline?
Sunline fan, you got me on that one! I have no Idea What they did before or where they were from. Marlin Stouffer who worked in the service dept now works for ShadyMaple RV. When I see him again I will be sure to get That answer for you ! Great question!!
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Old 02-19-2016, 06:35 PM   #54
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6" cushions would be prior to 92, our 2470 of that year had 3" thick dinette cushions.
We now have a 2007 2499, so, to compare between the 15 year difference, I see that the basic structure in the floor and walls is the same (ask me how I know) but I couldn't speak for the roof. I do see sag in the ceiling at the AC unit in the 07, the same as in the 92, so I can't say that the strength of the rafters has changed, but I do think building them with an arc is a plus for water runoff.

Window quality seems to be about the same in bothe (we had the radius windows on the 92 and I've seen some of that year with squared corners, never liked them. As far as window size, we now have no front window (water drips from condensation as mentioned here?) but there seems to be no fewer windows than the 92 had, and the rear window on the 2499 is HUGE!

Decals on the 92 were of better quality than later years judging by the peeling I've seen on the newer ones, but Sunline was using Avery which is a big name brand and being in the vinyl upholstery business, I can tell you vinyl mfgrs. seem to have learned from their past mistakes (they were making the product too durable in my opinion) and today's vinyl is not quite what it used to be, so it may have just been a matter of what was available to Sunline.

The wheels and axles on our 07 are made in China, the 92 axles were Dexter, made in USA, I don't remember seeing any markings on the wheels.

All of the interior walls, ceiling and cabinets are of similar quality to the 92, although the edges of the table and counter tops which were oak are now some cheap wood stained and barely coated with any polyurethane. Improvements to come on that. The cabinets seem to have been somewhat better fit and finish on the 92.

All of the appliances are the same brands in both, so if they aren't as good in 07 as 92 that would probably be the same story in other brands as well.

The "A" frame was downsized the last few years on the 2499 for some reason and Sunline had issues with that. I welded braces on ours, but whereas the 92 was rectangular tube, the 07 is C channel.

The sofa and swivel chair leave a lot to be desired in quality, but I can't make any comparison here as our 92 had neither.

Same exact Krystal Kote siding on both, same Dicor rubber roofing.

Overall, I'd say the quality hadn't changed all that much in 15 years, but I do see an attempt to cut costs on the undercarriage, which is probably the last place they should have considered doing that, but then I guess when a mfgr. wants to save money, they don't want it to be obvious in the showroom.
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Old 02-20-2016, 06:46 AM   #55
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John, The three men on the cover of the 2000 brochure were the owners of Sunline! Lou Martin (since 1964), W. Larry Lawerence ( since 197, and John Zimmerman (since 1975) the picture of the roof rafters was a trailer on the assembly line in the 1980s.
Thanks Chuck, Little by little we keep piecing the history and evolution of a great past company back together.

Tomorrow if things cooperate, we will get back onto the roof project again. Son tied up today and I have painting in the house to do.
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Old 02-20-2016, 09:17 AM   #56
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I don't know but really happened to Sunline? Poor management?

I know that many RV manufactures went out of business when gas prices skyrocketed and then the Depression but some independents like Northwood are still making RVs. And Canadian Escape and Tennessee built Olivers. I know folks will wait 6 months for an Oliver to be built. Bigfoot closed it's doors but was resurrected. Sunlines had a great reputation.

I remember you saying Jon that to resurrect the Sunline brand would be extremely expensive because they put a high cost on acquiring the name. Can that be negotiated? I think there is still a good market for quality RVs especially smaller ones like the 2499. Imagine a 2499 with a slide? A model like that leads to purchasing the larger units or a fifth wheel.

I bet a number of folks on this Forum would be more than capable of resurrecting the Sunline name and production plus knowing what RVers really want in a camper.

But just for giggles, what would it take??



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Trivia question for ya...where did Larry and John come from prior to their time at Sunline?
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Old 02-21-2016, 09:03 PM   #57
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Sunline fan, you got me on that one! I have no Idea What they did before or where they were from. Marlin Stouffer who worked in the service dept now works for ShadyMaple RV. When I see him again I will be sure to get That answer for you ! Great question!!
Ah, I remember hearing about Marlin. I'll spare you the trip though...it was Shasta! Shasta operated out a plant in Leola, the plant that later became Sunline's Leola (VIN L) plant, throughout the '60s and early '70s. The two guys were execs at that plant and came over to Sunline when Lou and Wayne wanted to grow the company. Given pre-'75 production volumes vs. post '75, I'd say they did what they wanted to do.

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All of the appliances are the same brands in both, so if they aren't as good in 07 as 92 that would probably be the same story in other brands as well.

The sofa and swivel chair leave a lot to be desired in quality, but I can't make any comparison here as our 92 had neither.
I always liked that Sunline seemed to stick to high quality appliances. I know the options are limited when it comes to RV appliances, but what they did choose seemed to be the better options. Maybe I would have chosen a Norcold refrigerator instead, but oh well. At least the Dometic is easy to get parts for.

The chair and sofa really haven't changed since about 1996/7. The newer ones may have been a little firmer, but I don't have one in mine to compare. I do remember the chair in my '94 2363...it was smaller and I thought less comfortable. The biggest difference sofa wise is that all the later models had the sprung J couch, unlike the early '90s when the shorter models had a series of foam cushions on a platform instead.

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Sunlines had a great reputation.

I remember you saying Jon that to resurrect the Sunline brand would be extremely expensive because they put a high cost on acquiring the name. Can that be negotiated? I think there is still a good market for quality RVs especially smaller ones like the 2499. Imagine a 2499 with a slide? A model like that leads to purchasing the larger units or a fifth wheel.
Yes, they did have a great reputation, but only in certain places. The brand is so unknown in certain parts of the country that they don't know anything about the quality.

I'm not sure who even owns the intellectual property now. Since so much time has passed, I'm sure the information is outdated to the point that it depreciated. Drawings and prints will have to be reviewed against new RVIA code, and adjustments made accordingly. Dealers have closed or have been bought out, so the dealer list isn't even accurate. Not to mention, the overall designs are somewhat dated in the industry now...how many new trailers are still stick and tin? All the plans would have to be redesigned to accommodate vacuum bonded sidewalls and some sort of color besides polar white. So, the information they were trying to sell then is pretty much just worth the (limited) name reputation and floor plan trademarks.

In the strong market now where there have been a lot of newer startups built out of the recession, it wouldn't make sense to rebuild the name. It would probably make more sense to sell the floorplan trademarks to another RV company for them to build.

The market is definitely moving toward smaller/lightweight trailers, much like Sunline's company model of the 1980s. If the company were around now, that should be a strategy they'd revisit for floorplan ideas. There was a 2499 with a slide built, just one prototype, but it never had time to grow into anything more before the shutdown. I imagine Sunline knew their floorplan lineup was aging, since the large slide room trailer was going the way of the dinosaur in the entire industry, and they were working on it. They did start things like the Que, the 195SR, the 249SR, 257SR, etc, but they were ahead of the time. I'm sure those floorplans would sell very well now. I'm not sure if there were any other smaller trailers or new ideas in the works in 2006, and if there were, those may not have been included with the potential sale. There were rumors that 2008 model Sunlines would all resemble the basic image introduced with the Que, but I never confirmed if any of that was true.
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Old 02-22-2016, 05:04 AM   #58
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In the strong market now where there have been a lot of newer startups built out of the recession, it wouldn't make sense to rebuild the name. It would probably make more sense to sell the floorplan trademarks to another RV company for them to build.

I never knew that the RV manufacturers trademarked their floorplans. It seems like something that could so easily be mimicked with a few minor variations wouldn't be worth the trouble to get a trademark for. But, maybe it would, I don't know.

The market is definitely moving toward smaller/lightweight trailers, much like Sunline's company model of the 1980s. If the company were around now, that should be a strategy they'd revisit for floorplan ideas.

Oh, and I thought the industry was still on the "bigger is better" theme. It seems everywhere you look there are towering 5th wheels and slides, slides and more slides, being hauled by trucks verging on the size of tractor trailer type vehicles. But something has to give at some point.

There was a 2499 with a slide built, just one prototype, but it never had time to grow into anything more before the shutdown.

I've seen a listing for a Sunline just like that. I think it's been on CL. I just tried to find it in my history, no success, but the seller said it was either very low production or the only one like you said Jon.

Rich
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:32 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcrt View Post
I never knew that the RV manufacturers trademarked their floorplans. It seems like something that could so easily be mimicked with a few minor variations wouldn't be worth the trouble to get a trademark for. But, maybe it would, I don't know.
I'm pretty sure I read something about floorplan trademarks in the eBay ad for the intellectual property. But, who knows how true that was...they were asking a lot of money for something that had a very limited market of buyers.

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Oh, and I thought the industry was still on the "bigger is better" theme. It seems everywhere you look there are towering 5th wheels and slides, slides and more slides, being hauled by trucks verging on the size of tractor trailer type vehicles. But something has to give at some point.
I haven't been to an RV show in a while, but from some of the industry things I've read and some of the TV shows, bigger is still demanded, but not like it used to be. The smaller, lightweight trailers are on the rebound.

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I've seen a listing for a Sunline just like that. I think it's been on CL. I just tried to find it in my history, no success, but the seller said it was either very low production or the only one like you said Jon.
Interesting. I haven't been scouring ads like I used to, so I missed it. I seem to recall hearing it was sold new up in New York. I've only seen one or two pictures of it inside. Definitely a rare one!
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2007 T-286SR Cherry/Granola, #6236, original owner, current mileage: 9473.8 (as of 6/18/21)
1997 T-2653 Blue Denim, #5471
1979 12 1/2' MC, Beige & Avocado, #4639
Past Sunlines: '97 T-2653 #5089, '94 T-2251, '86 T-1550, '94 T-2363, '98 T-270SR
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Old 02-22-2016, 05:59 PM   #60
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This is the one I saw:
2007 SUNLINE 195SR

Not the 2499 mentioned.

Jon, how do you quote individual parts of a post? I tried by quoting all of it and then deleting what I wasn't replying to, but as you can see in my last post, it didn't work.

Rich
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