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Old 11-21-2011, 10:46 PM   #1
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Electrical ratings of wall sockets...any difference

So here's a technical question. It got pretty chilly up in Charlotte County when we winterized the 88 Seville several weekends ago. Since the furnace is on my list to overhaul, I hooked up a small space heater to the wall socket next to the fold out table of the dinette. After a while...an hour or so, I started to smell electrical fumes. I checked the socket and sure enough the smell was coming from there. Obviously, I unplugged that bad boy in a hurry. I looked around and on the wall near the stove is an outlet that projects away from the wall a half inch or so. I'm thinking this must be the microwave outlet and if so, is bound to be capable of handling the amperage of a small space heater. So I plugged it in and checked it often for the next few hours...no smell, no hot heater cord or plug. So I turned the heater back and went to bed. It worked fine...no problem.

I was wondering if Sunline had different load(wattage/amperage) ratings for different outlets in the tailer. Seems to me this must have been the case as per my experience. If so, why weren't labels placed on the outlets to inform folks of this situation...It's pretty dangerous not to isn't it?

Now, I know space heaters in any environment are not anybody's best choice for heat, and it seems especially unwise in travel trailers now that I've had this experience. What do you folks use to take the chill off if you don't use the A/C reversing system or the furnace (both of which can be expensive to use for long periods of time) on your TT's ? Ceramic? Oil filled, Ben Gay applied liberally to all parts,(mostly) of the body? What.
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:42 AM   #2
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They are 15 amp. The way you can tell is the socket lay out a 15 amp will have both pins lined up a 20 amp will have one at 90 degrees to the other all though you can still plug a 15 amp load you can plug in a 20 amp load also but not so with a 15 amp socket. I just came back for VT and I did fine with a 1000 watt electric heater however your camper is a good bit bigger then mine. Two 1000 watt heaters will be too much for a 15 amp circuit even if you have two breakers for different outlets the adapter to plug into your house is only rated 15 amps now if you are plugged in with your big plug (30 amp) your fine. If you are just going to be working inside a Mr Buddy heater maybe fine for your needs but not for sleeping.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:01 AM   #3
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As our rigs age, some things change like the connections on electrical stuff. If there is even a bit of oxidation on the connections, or the connection is not as tight as it should be, the additional resistance can cause the fixture to heat up.

IIRC, Sunline didn't put the wall outlets in boxes but just taped them up and fastened them to the paneling and covered with a plate. Given that moisture can easily migrate in and out of the luan walls, and if the trailer was ever towed regularly, oxidation, corrosion, and loose connectors in perimeter walls are likely to occur.

The microwave outlet may have been installed in a surface mount box which would protect it further.

The only solution I can offer is to open them all up and inspect them. Clean and tighten as needed, re-tape and put 'em back together.

AFAIK, every outlet in the trailer should be good for 15 amps although some circuits may have more outlets than others.
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:31 PM   #4
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Typical RV outlets are not the best they are meant to be easy to assemble during construction. The plate is part of the outlet they are not like a house cover that you can just take off and remove the outlet. If you have an outlet that is not in a box but just screwed to the wall it is not code not even a little bit and likely added after it was sold. Your protruding outlet maybe a GFI if the microwave is any where near water it should be a GFI.
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:21 PM   #5
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Not sure if this helps, but I thought I would share.

When we dis-assembled the T299SR, they only used 12g wire for the air conditioner. All the other AC circuits, were wired with 14g wire. Including the circuit for the microwave.
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:48 PM   #6
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If you have an outlet that is not in a box but just screwed to the wall it is not code not even a little bit and likely added after it was sold.
What we commonly think of as "code" is regular building code. RV's are not subject to code. My entire '99 Sunline was wired like that. I bought it new from the dealer. It came from the factory like that.
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:13 PM   #7
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The picture below, is a typical RV receptacle. The screws turn plastic ears, that engage the wallboard and hold the outlet in place. There is no "Box" to hold the receptacle.

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Old 11-22-2011, 09:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post

I was wondering if Sunline had different load(wattage/amperage) ratings for different outlets in the tailer. Seems to me this must have been the case as per my experience. If so, why weren't labels placed on the outlets to inform folks of this situation...It's pretty dangerous not to isn't it?

What do you folks use to take the chill off if you don't use the A/C reversing system or the furnace (both of which can be expensive to use for long periods of time) on your TT's ? Ceramic? Oil filled,.
Drake,

I'll add a few comments to help the cause.

What wattage was your heater? I'll guess 1500 watts. If your on a nominal 110 volt source that can be 13 amps of power in just that heater. If your 120 volts a little less.

Now the way Sunline and most other camper brands are made share loads on the AC side. You can see here on a one and only Sunline wiring diagram we have Sunline Coach Owner's Club - Sunline Owner's Files - Sunline Solaris T-2499 Wiring Diagram

I obtained that from Sunline for my prior camper when they where still in business. I do not know what Sunline did in 1988... but I do know in 2004 as that diagram shows us.

If you look the "general purpose" circuit has other overhead on it even if you are not plugged in with your 1500 watt heater. The convertor is on it which I "think" you still have. And the fridge electric element. In your case you yanked out the RV fridge but where did you plug in the small dorm fridge? Use the same plug that was right there?

Now add that to what Steve noted as loose wires, corrosion. It is not surprising you had a hot setup if that heater was on high full out. Odds are high your where sitting right on the limit.

Sunline did not tag that the key is realizing it. You can do the same thing in your house even.

If you look they do have a galley plug. Yours "might" have one/ It should be by the countertop area by the stove. Kitchen have things plugged in then that can create heat. Coffee pots, electric frying pans so they give you a dedicated 15 amps. You may have found that one. They also have a dedicated 15 amp microwave. Or you may have foudn that one, in the newer campers the micro wave receptacle is a single outlet.

You need to sort out how your vintage is wired. The wall outlets have great chance to be tied to other stuff which is where your problem started.

Since you smelt electrical, there is something that created it verses tripping the breaker or fuse. Best now that you know it, check every outlet for loose wires, corrosion etc. like Steve stated. Even back at the power box on the breaker. Check all screws to be tight. Us who tow down the road get road vibration and can loosen things up. Knowing the flammable construction of a TT, check into this. That circuit is weak now and some day in the it may rear it's head again.

Now what do we do? No we do not do the Ben gay....LOL

We use an oil filled and a ceramic heater. I bring in a separate extension cord 12 awg, through the shore line cord hole. One heater goes on that separate cord. The other heater goes on medium heat on the wall outlets. And I have "showed" my DW, only 1 heat producing anything plugged in at once. She does good by it. Even turns off the heater when she runs the microwave. It is easy to run out of a 30 amp supply quick. The HW heater on electric, the fridge on electric, the battery charging on high, and then plug in a heater, hair dryer, toaster, microwave and your over the top of 30 amps. Same problem can happen in the summer with the AC on.

The key is to realize it.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:59 PM   #9
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The discussion on the 120 wall outlet just being screw into wood. Well it seems we have some dates on this. Steve's 1999 had the scewed in the wood setup.

Seems maybe RIVA caught up with the times and I believe plastic boxes arrived on the scene somewhere between 2000 and 2003.

I borrowed this pic from Kitty and EMD_Driver you can see the plastic box in the wall. It is only on the Romex wire. The 12vdc is just stuffed in the wall. EDIT: This may "not" be a box for the wall outlet. It may be the newer system RV recptacle whivh from this view mihgt look like a box. EMD_Driver to confrim.


And you can see here on my slide repair. The 120AC is joined in a plastic box. They even have conduit sleeves through the studs as a wire chase. The odd thing is it was a piece of bare EMT??? Why use metal? Technically that should of been plastic for double insulated or metal grounded. One of these days I'll see if I can get a RIVA book on what codes they do have.


Just throwing this out as FYI

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Old 11-22-2011, 10:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMD_Driver View Post
The picture below, is a typical RV receptacle. The screws turn plastic ears, that engage the wallboard and hold the outlet in place. There is no "Box" to hold the receptacle.

Gary, where they though out the T299? They may have done something different in the slide.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:20 PM   #11
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The '99 had these guys throughout the TT. They removed the standard #6 screws and used RV #2 square head wood screws right into the luan.



And then just wrapped the whole thing with electric tape.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:08 PM   #12
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You know....I am soooooo glad to be a member of this club. You guys and gals ALWAYS have so much knowledge to share and share it so freely. Come spring, I'm going to be doing some outlet investigation. And I will find safer, lower wattage ways of heating the old Seville.Thanks to each one of you who responded in such a thorough and friendly way. You're the best.
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Old 11-23-2011, 06:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
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The '99 had these guys throughout the TT. They removed the standard #6 screws and used RV #2 square head wood screws right into the luan.



And then just wrapped the whole thing with electric tape.
Steve,

WOW....... Well it looks like from "maybe" Gary's note until he comes back and confirms that on the 2004 T299 tear down that at least between 1999 and 2003 they went from a taped standard home receptacle to at least an encased and insulated receptacle.

I am curious what my wall plugs are. I know the slide junction box was a plastic box for the rubber SOOW cord junction for the 120 power to the slide. The wall outlets, well I never tore it down that far. This weekend when we are out camping I am going to take a face plate off and look.

The good news is RIVA is at least trying to address some of the issues. I wish they would up the requirements to arc fault breakers. Not that much cost now a days and the protection in a camper is worth it. Odds are high the arc fault breaker would of helped Drake in his situation. They are now NEC code for bedrooms in new homes.

We continue to learn the evolution of TT building.

Thanks

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Old 11-23-2011, 08:37 AM   #14
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The outlet is the box there are no exposed wires, the back of the box crimps the romex inside, cuts the insulation and makes contact with the outlet that’s why I’m not real fond of them the contact is not that good. States have different codes or should I say had different codes there is a national code in place now. My 87 motor home and my 90 Sunline all have the full plastic box and I find it hard to believe PA allowed the outlets to be exposed it’s just too dangerous. For 15 years I was the electronics tech for the Cumberland County ME and did house and industrial wiring as a side line and they would hang me out to dry if I tried some thing like that. The wire size is a good way to tell how much load they are fused for #14 wire is a max of 15 amps (1800 watts @ 120 V) and a #12 is a max of 20 amps (2400 watts @ 120V). My T1700 only has one 15 amp circuit but 4 outlets + the battery charger so pretty fast I’m going to max out the 15 amp if I plug a lot of stuff in. All though the chance of ever using max current for my battery charger (it is a replacement) is slim it in it’s self can draw as much as 750 watts. The other thing you need to keep in mind is any adaptor added to the 30 amp city power plug is a compromise because it is only rated to 15 amps all though it can be plugged into a 20 circuit.
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Old 12-04-2011, 03:41 PM   #15
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From Drakes post and the discussion that followed afterwords made me question, OK what exactly do I have in my camper? I did not have to deal with any issues so far in this area nor did I have a need "yet" to open up a receptacle. So on our last campout I did some investigating.

Here are pictures of what I have in mine. They are a combination of "self contained devices" aka "SCD's" and ones that use a shallow plastic box and screw terminals and push in wire connections. The SCD means there is no additional devices like a separate electrical box, receptacle and cover it is an all one self contained devices.

The SCD's. I have 5 of them as wall receptacles. Looks like this and the internals.


The cover pops off with a gentle prying on the ends.


Looks like this with the cover off. The 2 screws work 2 swing clamps to clamp this to the luan wall board.


Here is the manufacture and the part number.



Here is the unit out of the wall. You have to pop off the gray rear cover by pushing in the snap dogs on the sides.

You can see the gray lock tabs here



Now the unit it self inside.


This is what I believe mainah was describing. After seeing this, I too am not a fan of this type of connection. This is one step up from a scotch lock connector that I despise with great passion especially when RV manufactures use them on brake wiring. At least Sunline did not use these but my son's Colemean PU did and so does Skyline. Scotch lock

I had to dig but I found the manufacture. PS stands for Pass and Seymor and here is the catalog. And they do show a UL and CSA approval when used in their approved locations. Which appears to be RV's and Pre-manufactured housing. Having to apply and obtained a UL rating on industrial control cabinets all I can say is there must be different level of UL compliance.... How this connection is approved in a setting exposed to vibration is beyond me.
http://tools.passandseymour.com/lite..._Bro_frame.pdf

Legrand the mother company About

And a web hit that finally gave me a clue to find the Pass and Seymor trail.
boxless devices? - Mike Holt Code Forum

At least these are still made here in the US or at least they where. There seems to be a special allowance for them in RV's and manufactured housing. I do not know what drove this need, cost or time as these type of devices are know as speed wiring devices. You would think with the road vibration, lack of shocks on the standard RV that they would not use this type of connection in an RV. But I have them and despite me not liking them personally they have not yet presented me with a problem. However if one does become loose in the wiring, total replacement is your only solid course of correction. I will have to investigate if a standard screw type receptacle is rated to work in a shallow box.

Next is the GFI wall plugs. These are for sure deeper and will not work in a standard 2" wall and not hit the siding with wire connections in the box. There is a plastic box in the wall and an extender plate to create the required room.





The box and the GFI. I really wish they would of used the screw terminals verses the push in's. Again the push in's are rated for the load just I have found them come loose. Last year I replaced 2 outlets in my daughters house from these coming loose.


The inspector sticker.


So for those inquiring minds needing to know (like me... ) this is what Sunline did in at least 2003 and 2004. Mostly likely a little older and all the way to the end in 2006 with the last 2007 models.

Thanks

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Old 12-04-2011, 04:26 PM   #16
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The GFI's are most likely a back feed connection meaning the screws actually clamp down on the wire inside. They are OK. The stab on things leave me cold I know why they do it and there are many things out there that are exempt and that's one of them. I'm going to guess that is the way they are able to use laborers and not an electricians to wire campers. NEMA (national electrical manufactures association) are the ones that set the standards and guess what? they make the stuff!
On the feed through outlets they just strip the outer jacket and use the same wire to go to the next outlet the ideal of course is not to have a deep box because the walls are so thin that's why the GFI's stick out. I have never seen the tool that is used to squish them together but it must be pretty neat it does take a good bit of effort to get the damn things together. The older campers are the same way except they don't have a removable cover the outlet clamp screws are on the outside and the cover and the outlet are one unit at least the newer ones look nicer.
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Old 12-04-2011, 06:11 PM   #17
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The clamp tool shows up on page 3 and 5 of this PDF flyer. Most likely a $100 to $125 crimper. http://tools.passandseymour.com/lite..._Bro_frame.pdf

The GFI's, yes if the screws clamp the wire inside then yes that is not a problem. I have seen/used them.

Pass and Seymor claims this about their SCD's

Quote:
P&S SCDs provide connections that stand up to transport and road vibrations better than standard devices, eliminating expensive callbacks.
The question is what are they declaring standard? Standard in the SCD world or standard in the fastener receptacle world? I will say the wires are jammed down in there and the gray cover acts somewhat as a wire anti lift out device.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:13 PM   #18
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That is a pretty neat tool but I don't think I'm going to order one for my bag of tricks. I have only done maybe 3 and I used a "C" clamp and a piece of wood.
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Old 12-05-2011, 07:25 AM   #19
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What do you folks use to take the chill off if you don't use the A/C reversing system or the furnace (both of which can be expensive to use for long periods of time) on your TT's ? Ceramic? Oil filled, Ben Gay applied liberally to all parts,(mostly) of the body? What.
I also do what JohnB suggested and it works great. I put a 12G, construction extension cord into my e-cord storage and ran it into the trailer. It is coiled up and stored under the sofa along with a ceramic heater. The cord exits through the mouse hole, along with the 30A. Cheap, easy and as close to fool proof as you can get (unless you give up on the cheap and easy).

Stay toasty,
Teach
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Old 12-05-2011, 07:08 PM   #20
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That works great and a good ideal but you really have to look at the cable every one says heavy duty but it may only be #14 or #16 wire so if you go looking for a cord make sure you look at the jacket it should be clearly marked with the wire gauge if it's not go some where else it should say some thing like SJ 12 AMG be ready to hand over quite a few dollars.
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