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Old 10-23-2012, 04:19 PM   #21
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JohnB,

The UVW of the TT is - 4374
The A-Frame rails are 4"x1.5" U-channel
From the ground to the top of the inside of the coupling is - 20.25"
From the ground to the top of the A-frame rail is - 19.75"
There is a front storage compartment is not a complete pass thru and is fed from only the left side and continues to the storage under the bed but is seperated as it meets the bed.
There is storage under the bed also and it is the entire area under the bed and continues to the right side where if there was a door on the right side it would be the twin of the left side.
In the rear of the TT under the couch there is storage accesses from the outside and that space also houses the water heater.

Please let me know if there is something I have missed.

Thanks,
TOM G
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:56 PM   #22
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JohnB,

Well this evening I went out and decided to try and determine the actual tongue weight on the trailer as is sits today. I used the bath scale, pipe and board method and came up with a scale weight of 219lbs. I multiply that times 3 and that is telling me that I have a tongue weight of 657lbs. (See Illustration) With this number I am having doubts that my current vehicle is going to be up for the task even with a WD system.

The TT is loaded with all of our camping gear minus food and one 30# gas bottle is empty. One thing to note is that I plan on mounting my spare tire on the rear bumper but first have to do a little welding to repair the stress fractures at the mounting points where the prior owner affixed a 2” receiver tube to carry a bike rack with no regard for the light duty bumper. I am hoping that that will take off a few pounds from the TW. The tire mount is on order and should be here by the end of the week. Once I have mounted the tire I will take a new measurement.

Thanks
TOM G.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:42 PM   #23
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Hi Tom,

Here is what I have come up with. The best way to do this is to load the must haves (people and bare essentials) in the truck and head to the truck scale and get a front and rear axle weight. Put the hitch head and shank in the receiver when you do this. Now you are armed with hard numbers of where you stand.

I have used these 3 sites to come up with axle weights. I cannot find a Laredo with the 4.7 V8. Can only find the 4.7 in the limited version and the limited is heavier. So I will use the GVW you provided of 4,613#

2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4dr SUV 4.7L V8 4x4 5-speed Automatic Features and Specs

2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee Specifications

Specifications - 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4X4 - Yahoo! Autos

I already showed you the camper TW concerns. Once I saw that I was trying to find the rear axle weight. The best I can find on line is the split of the GVW between the front and rear axle. There is going to be some error in this but you can see the process. Get some real scaled weights and go from there.

GVWR Check
Using your 4,613# GVW and I “guessed” at 2 people and some essential gear to be 450# + 30# for hitch head and shank. I forgot to ask you how much people and essential gear weight would be. 4,613 + 450 + 30# = 5,093# GVW. You need to adjust these for actual weights and people weight.

Using the Jeep GVWR 6,100 – 5,093 GVW = 1,007# capacity for TT.

The GVW has a basic split of 54% front and 46% rear. Or from a GVW of 5,0936# is 2,750# front and 2,343# rear on the axle loads.

Rear Axle Capacity Check
The GAWR-RR (rear) is 3,200#. Using 3,200# GAWR-RR – 2,343# rear axle weight leaves 857# left for a TT tongue weight after a properly adjusted WD hitch. In your case you can only use 720# for TW as the receiver limits this. However if you can manage to a 720# TW, it just fits.

Tow Capacity Check
Using the Jeep at 5,093# GVW + TT UVW 4,374# + 1,000# camping gear = 10,467# The 1,000# of camping gear include full LP gas, battery, pots, pans, linens, food etc. It is very common to reach or exceed that 1,000# in a camper of your size.

Your GCWR is 11,450# - 10,467# = 983# of towing reserve or 8.6% of the GCWR. It fits inside the rating however TT’s exceed the standard 60 sq foot front area rating that most TV are rated at. The wind resistance is eating up your reserve. The only thing I have ever seen issued in writing is that above 60 sq feet you will have a loss of performance. They never say how much. You will notice it when you are on hills. You are not going to win races but you will get there. You will have to decide if you can work with this must reserve or not.

The 2 things that stand out in the numbers check:
  • TT loaded TW ( this one you are going to have to mange to 720# if you can)
  • A properly adjusted WD hitch (more on this as the air bags are an issue here)
There are 3 other areas:
  • Need for anti sway control - You knew this. The Reese DC is a good one.
  • The 1,200# WD bars on a receiver rated at 720#. I myself would get 800# WD bars for the long term as after enough towing, when a bad situation occurs a hard back flex in the hitch off of a hard bump, those 1,200# WD bars can do a job on your receiver. Be on the lookout for a bent up pin box on the receiver.
If you do end up running a loaded TW over the 720# rating, the 1,200# WD bars will handle the weight but it puts that much more strain in the receiver and more aggravates the situation.
  • TV tires. More on this one to follow.
The bath scale method allows you to get in the ball park. It is better than nothing and confirms you have TW you need to watch closely. When you get this sorted out, take the Jeep and loaded TT to the truck scales and get 3 weights.

All axle by axle. TV front on a scale, TV rear on a scale and both TT axles on a scale. If and when you go, ask more on how on to do this as we have some pointers.
  • TV and TT hitched with WD engaged.
  • TV and TT hitched but drop the chains on the WD bars. Raw tongue weight hanging on the ball.
  • TV only. Go unhook TT and weight just the Jeep.
From those 3 weights you can check all the axle ratings, GVWR, GCWR, how well the WD is setup and a TT tongue weight.

The loaded TW is the issue to watch out for, for sure. I will explain more on the WD hitch/air bags and the tires in a following post. On paper if the weights are verified, you at the capacity of the Jeep. You have to watch the weights or you can be over.

Be back soon with the WD hitch and tires.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:15 AM   #24
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John,

Thank you for taking the time to help me with this. I will work on getting all the measurements by next week. Unfortunately, I have to go to Pennsylvania to finish putting a roof on my parents house, insulate my mother-in-laws attic and build an atrium to my brother's new house. I am only telling you this so you don't feel I am ignoring your posts. But it looks as if my plans to work on getting everything set up in the near future may be delayed a week or so.

BTW here is a great site for newer grand cherokee jeeps.

WKJeeps.com - 2005-2010 Jeep Grand Cherokee

Thanks and I will be back soon,
Tom G
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:55 PM   #25
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Tom,

You are very welcome. We/I have no problem trying to help someone. Especially when it comes to towing a camper. Just ask away and if you do not understand, ask for more explanation.

Now for the last 2 areas I pointed out.

Proper WD settings on the hitch are really needed to the point of imperative on a TV like the one you have now. That big ole diesel dully you had compensated for a lot of things when towing your 30 foot camper. When you have the smaller TV and the weights are up getting close to or at the limits of the TV, it is even that much more important.

You did state you did not know the need for WD so I will explain some and show you a little on how this works.

In your case you have 109.5” wheel base. I’m going to estimate the rear overhang on the truck. The rear overhang is the distance from the center of the rear axle to the tow ball. Your truck is 186.7” long with a 109.5 WB = 77” of truck left that is split between the front and rear fenders. Estimating it is equal that means the back of the truck is 38.6” plus 10” for a hitch shank to the tow ball. Or a 48.6” rear overhang. It may be a little more but that make this issue even worse.

The rear overhang is a long lever with a tow ball on it. Doing some math for you, if we drop a 720# TW camper on the ball, that rear overhang lever creates a force of 1,040# pressing down on the rear axle and pivoting on the rear axle, unloading the front axle by 320#. It is not safe to drive a small truck like the Jeep that far out of balance. The rear axle is over the capacity of the axle, tires may also be. Since the rear suspension is strained so much the truck wants to rock real easy left to right. The front axle is so light you can break traction in a turn or worse skid trying to stop on slippery pavement.

So how do we overcome this? Now insert the WD hitch. The WD hitch has 2 WD bars (springs) that are part of the hitch head which is inserted into the pin box of the truck receiver. When you tension the ends of the WB bars it will start to exert great force into the truck receiver in a rotating up direction. This is a torque actually. You are now using leverage in your favor. As the torque in the receiver rises it starts to transfer weight off the rear axle and move it to where ever tires touch the ground. In the case, more weight moves to the closest tire from the rear axle. The TV front axle gets a large portion of the weight and then the TT axles get the rest.

The goal is the create enough tension in the WD bars to create enough torque in the truck receiver to transfer the lost weight on the front axle back to very close to what it was before you hitched up. In this case you are trying to get 320# back onto the front axle or very close to it. The truck now steers right again, stops right again and the rear axle gave up considerable weight from being so far overloaded. In this process some of the rear axle weight ended up going to the TT axles.

Once the front axle is at or very close to unhitched weight, then proper WD is achieved. The truck now has a chance at towing the load and be inside the truck ratings. In this hitch adjusting process you need to end up with the camper being towed level. You adjust for a towing level stance of the TT after you adjust for WD on the truck. You do this my moving the hitch head up and down the shank with all those adjusting holes they have. Moving the hitch head up and down can interact with the WD sometimes so you may need to tweak one last time more WD transfer.
Notice I did not say the truck was level in any of this or needs to be. If it is great but it is not what we are after. The front end returned back close to unhitched height and weight, the rear of the truck squatting 1 ½” to 2” from unhitched is good. You never want the back of the truck at or higher than unhitched height/weight. This means you transferred too much weight off the rear axle. In this case the front axle can be overloaded, get too much bite in a turn driving the truck into oversteer and the rear axle slip side ways from lack of traction. Plus you can overload the receiver.

So this is why and how WD works. Now the air bags.

Air bags in this case interferes with the WD when you have large TW’s. The only thing air bags do is lift the rear of the truck straight up. No weight moves off of the rear axle, it is just sitting there as dead weight. While pumping up the air bags a lot may lift the back of the truck to be level, it is still holding all 1,040# of dead weight of the tow ball. It is also overloading receiver which is rated for probably only 350# of dead weight with no WD. So using air bags to make one think or look like they are doing good, does not help the big picture problem in light duty TV’s.

You mentioned you run 8 to 12 psi in the bags. I’m going estimate they are ~ 3” diameter bags. If they are bigger they lift more, smaller they lift less. 12 psi in a 3” bag creates 85# of force or lift. 2 of them per axle creates 170# of lift. That much will interfere with the WD hitch which is trying to shift weight. If something comes along and lifts the back of the truck up outside the WD hitch, it unloads the force on the WD bars as the tow ball went up in the air. This is like putting the tongue jack down. If you unload the force off the WD bar, it unloads the torque in the receiver and does not allow weight to transfer to the front axle.

So now what do you do? I do not know for your bags but you need to reduce the air as far as you can and not have the bag pinch and get jammed up. Some of the large bags are 5 psi for the low. You being smaller may be able to go lower. Then hitch up, adjust the WD hitch correctly and do not add any more air to the bags.

With all this… adjusting the WD hitch correctly will allow your truck to handle the 720# TW as long as the truck weights are not higher then I estimated.

The 2nd topic was tires.

You stated the tires where P265/65R17. Did I read that right? The door sticker shows P235/65R17. Maybe you put wider tires on. What did not seem to line up is the air pressure.

This chart you linked me to says
Michelin tire chart

P235/65R17 = 1,754# load rating at a max pressure of 35 psi

P265/65R17 = 2,125# load rating at a max pressure of 35 psi

You stated you were running 40 to 42 psi in them. The door sticker states 33 psi for the truck. OK what does the side wall of the tire say Max cold pressure is? Something not adding up in the charts and pressures. Yes, running the tires at max side wall cold pressure is the best you can make what you have the stiffest it can be. But only up to max side wall. Help fill in the missing pieces here.

Now to tire side wall flex. This one can do you in even with the DC. Here is the wiggle test….LOL Go to the back of the truck, look at the rim of the wheel and the tire. Now lean up against the rear bumper or back of the truck and rock it. Get er rocking pretty good. What you are seeing is the entire truck shifting back and forth in the tire side wall. Now find a 2500 or 3500 truck with stiffer tires and try the wiggle test. It will be night and day.

Not all P tires have this soft side flex problem but many do. The closer you get to higher weight rating the worse the issue is.

Now let’s insert the anti-sway control. The Reese DC, the Equal-Izer, the friction sway bar, they act to create a stiffer connection between across the tow ball area to make it harder to pivot the truck on the tow ball. The DC and the Equal-I-zer create close to the same high friction. They are doing their part to resist sway forces. They can only hold the hitch connection. If the sway force is strong enough, it pushes on the stiff hitch connection and then the truck has to resist it. If the tire has excess flex in the side all the tread is planted on the pavement yet the truck shifts around in the side walls. When this gets bad, this creates a very unsettling feeling in the truck. In real bad cases the driver may try and steer correct for this, over steering or over braking the truck and set off a full blown sway event. This is even more aggravated by the light suspension flexing being pushed by the heavy camper. The rear or front TV tires can cause this. I do not know how your truck feels, But I have felt this in some folks trucks I helped them set up their hitch. I also had an issue on my 2500 Suburban like this with tire brands.

Max side wall pressure helps stiffen up the tire but it can only do so much. If the TT is balanced correct with the TW in the 13% or higher range, the WD hitch is set correct, the anti-sway setup right, The truck is not over GAWR or GVWR then what is left is tires. Michelin have softer side walls as a norm. They ride great non towing. Even in LT they have to be aired up higher than other brands to get the stiffness. I’m not picking on Michelin as there are many other brands too with the same issue. Going to a LT D will, help or finding what brand/model P has been known to successfully tow with on a Jeep with a high TW.

So what can you do? Get the camper loaded, weigh the truck and camper, make sure your weight to ratings are good, setup the WD correct, add the DC, set the tire to max side walls pressure and try it out. If there are issues, we need to know what they are and pin point to the one needing adjustment or changing.

If tires are come out to be your last problem, a lot of research is needed to find a good stiff tire but yet is acceptable at least on ride and mileage. Tire dealers who never towed a TT before may not always be the best source of info. Listen to them and ask around. Just because they sell a lot of certain tire to folks does not mean they are a good towing tire. Find a dealer you can work with and if the tire they sell you shifts all over, make it known before you buy it, you can return them for a change.

Hope this all helps. The TT tongue dimensions you stated will work OK with the DC. If you get it, post back we can help you set it up. The new DC needs more flat washers on the frame plate to work with the square corner channel iron then the per 2010 vintage did. And do not use the self taping screws. Use good grade 5 or higher bolts and nuts. Your channel iron frame is your friend in this case.

John

PS. Report back when you can. I’m heading to AZ next week for 2 weeks for work myself so it might be a bit or real late before I respond.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:23 AM   #26
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John,

One quick question. E-trailer has 800# bars for about $70ea. I was about to buy a set but then I started thinking. Am I only buying these bars because of the jeep? If I had a different TV would the 1200# bars work?
What I am getting at is; if we go through all this and the jeep is not up to the task and I have to find another TV. Did I just waste $150?

Thanks,

TOM G.
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:24 PM   #27
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You are only buying the 800# bars for the jeep at this point in the recommendation. The Jeep cannot hack anything larger. It is going to be hard to manage down to a 720# loaded TW in your floor plan but it is not impossible. Decisions/decisions

However... heads up on large TW's on a 4" A frame that your trailer has. We have had A frame headers get bent on 4" channel frame setup’s if they have 1,000# or higher TW. If due to your floor plan you end up with a 1,000# TW, then yes you need the 1,200# WD bars and more truck. BUT… get back to us as we can show you how to add a reinforcing member across the bottom of the header and at the snap up’s to prevent the header buckling problem. Your layout and frame is very similar to the 2005 to 2007 T2499 campers where many members had to work through this issue. Heavy TW on a 4" channel A frame with the header they had.

On the 800# WD bars, they are often times sold on craig’s list or even RV dealer has used ones they may swap your 1,200# for 800’s. I would not be afraid to buy a used WD bar as long as it is in good condition. Not beat up etc. It is more common than you think for people to have the wrong WD bars to later upsize or down size. If you are going used…. Look to see that you find the trunnion lugs to be a nominal 1 1/8”. All the new ones are. But....Years ago Reese made 7/8” ones. The 7/8” ones do not fit your hitch head very well. See here, it is a taper but the “nominal” is 1/1 8”. The 7/8” one is real small.



Good luck

John
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:35 PM   #28
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Another possibility, the newer Drawtite WD bars are made the same as the Reese but have a Drawtite sticker on them. Cequent bought both companies and have all but about phased out the original Drawtite products. However they sell Drawtite as still that brand. Side by side with a Reese, many items only change by a sticker. When looking for WD bars, open up the search for Drawtite and you may have more options.
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Old 10-27-2012, 07:10 AM   #29
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John,

What I am going to end up doing is getting a new TV. I do think that with a lot of your help and direction, the jeep could be setup and be made to be used as my TV. It would not like it but could do it. The problem I have is 2 fold, 1st - I really don't want to always worry about TW and if I got it right and 2nd - that if I were to have an accident as a result of pushing the limits, that would be my fault and I don't and could not live with that. Especially if someone was hurt.
Regardless I bought the DC kit and I am going to set up the DC this weekend (my former plans got canceled due to approaching weather) and borrow a pickup for our 1st and only trip this year in our new to us TT. Then clean it up and put it away for the winter.
In the spring I will look for a truck and without a doubt shoot you a line on setting that one up too. I will let you know how the DC install and setup goes and if you don't mind, seek your advice if I get to a "Now what do I do?" point.

Thanks for all the help,
Tom G
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Old 10-27-2012, 08:49 AM   #30
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Hi Tom,

I'll type you back later on the 1st part of your reply. Since your going to mount the DC this weekend I'll add a few tips for you. The link I pointed you to early in this post has all the info to look out for and how to set up the Hitch.

If you bought a new DC from Etrailer, BTW a good choice, the new post 2010 vintage needs an extra step. He is the problem in pics and how to get out of it.

The prior DC like I have has a smaller bend radius in the frame bracket. See here.


The round corner will hit the square corner of the channel iron frame. Do not grind the frame, but add 1 or 2, 1/2 flat washers to space out the bracket so you are not binding on the corner.

Hard to see bur they are between the frame and the bracket




Now to the new post 2010 vintage DC. They made the bend radius larger even.... Here is the new one


It will need even more flat washers to space it out.

Here is the problem when it is not compensated for. You will twist up the bracket when towing. These are from a buddy I was helping set up his.


And here after he pulled out the self taping screws because of it. NOTE: The chain plate is on backwards in this pic.


Also the hole drilling..... it is amazing how many dealers and installers have drilled those 4 holes in the wrong place.... All A frames are not created equal and the new DC sets up to a different dimension than the pre 2010 vintage. The Reese new instructions are better but here is a heads up tip. Before you drill anything.... Do a mock up.

C clamp the DC in place based on the instructions and check that you are in the middle of the DC arm adjustments. Then stick the hitch head up in the ball coupler, Hold up the shank semi level, put the WD bars on, hang the chains and check it.
Like this


While the hitch is not under load you can spot if you are in the right area of adjustment on the DC arms. Reese gives you a lot of adjustment as long as you are in the right areas to start with. If you are not, then tweak the bracket to make it line up.

This is truly a place where you measure 3 times and drill once. When the installer gets it goofed, they are so far off you cannot adjust the DC arm to ever line up with the V notch in the WD bar once your under load. And don't laugh, it happens way too many times. They are actually drilled 1/2" to 3/4" too far forward or back.

And lastly, before you drill make sure you are dead flush to the bottom of the A frame. Use a jack or clamp to hold the bracket flush.


If the DC frame bracket is not dead flush up to the bottom of the frame, it will start rocking the brackets and working on the bolts. I also suggest you pitch the self tapping screws and get grade 5 or higher 1/2 - 13 hex bolts, nuts and lock washers. Your channel iron frame will work perfect with them.

Good luck

John
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:57 PM   #31
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John,

Does it matter what way the mounting bracket is positioned? Should the tabs on the bracket that the Cam arm mounts to, be positioned towards the front or towards the back? (See Pic's)
Also instead of using washers what do you think about using flat stock 1.25in 1/4in with 1/2in holes drilled the 4.5in apart to match the bracket? It is slightly thicker than 2 washers that are needed and would span the entire width of the bracket.

Thanks
TOM G.
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:34 AM   #32
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Hi Tom,

If you have the ability to create the flat stock, that is perfect. Better than the flat washer even.

The DC frame plate can be flipped with the pivot hole for the DC yoke to the rear or front pending clearance issue with LP tanks etc. Reese use to even state this, at least in the older instructions. No problem being either way. BUT, they should not be mounted with one, one direction and the other the other direction. Both are aft or both are towards the front. It looks like you have the self tapping bolts in the holes already. Did you drill them the way the pics are?


That said, you should have a left hand and right hand bracket in the kit. Not 2 rights or 2 lefts. Reason I bring this up, one of the buddies I helped actually had 2 lefts.... and the dealer drilled them both on... Which created one side correct and the other side wrong as he ran out of DC arm adjustment. Your kit should have 1 of each like this.



The Reese stickers may end up reading what looks backwards on the frame but the sticker does not make it work right, the location of the pivot hole being correct does.

Also, as FYI the chain plates in your pics are on backwards. Flip them so the chain plate bends inwards. I know you may have them just hung for mock up, just do not use then backwards under load. Reese made them with the bent angle to help the chain pull more vertical over the pre 2010 vintage that was straight. However some folks install them backwards and use them under load and then they pull hard on an angle and make the problem worse. They can pull hard and try and bend the cam arm out.

Good luck

John
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:18 PM   #33
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John,
Well with the aide of you and your instructions I believe I have successfully installed and set up the DC sway control.
The ¼ in plate worked great as a spacer and once I tightened everything down, the bracket sat flat at the bottom and side. I was impressed that you noticed the self-tapping bolts that I was using to keep in place and hold up the spacer plate while I was mocking everything up. Nice catch.
Also, thanks for the heads up on the chain plate orientation; I looked at those things 10X and had no idea what way they went. I even looked at the ones in your old posts (the set up instruction for the “thesteigers” and they look like they are the straight style before the design change you mentioned). I had a 50/50 shot of getting them right and guessed wrong. Thanks again.
As you suggested, I used grade 8 bolts and hardware to install the plates. The funny thing is, Reese uses only grade 5 bolts and hardware in the pivot of the DC arm where it joins the frame plate. Do you think that I should replace that bolt and hardware with grade 8?

Here are the measurements that I obtained before, during, and after final setup.

TV only

LR 32 3/4”
RR 32 7/8”
LF 32 3/16”
RF 32 1/8”

TV w/TT hooked – 7 links hanging no teeth on Hitch Head showing

LR 31 1/4” - Minus 1 1/2”
RR 31 3/4” - Minus 1 1/8”
LF 32 7/16” - Plus 1/4”
RF 32 1/4” - Plus 1/8”

TT w/TT Hooked – 6 links hanging and 2 teeth showing on Hitch Head

LR 31 1/4” - Minus 1 1/2”
RR 31 11/16” - Minus 1 3/16”
LF 32 3/8” - Plus 3/16”
RF 32 1/8” - No change

I am planning on going to the scales on Friday and getting all of the weights recorded. Am I missing any of the positions needed to get all the weights? All weights are with gear and crew.
1. TV
2. Only TV front
3. Only TV rear
4. Only TV front on scale while hooked to TT
5. Only TV front and rear on scale while hooked to TT (TT not on scale)
6. Both TV and TT on scale
7. TT only on scale while hooked to TV (TV not on scale)

I added some pic’s of the TV hooked to the TT with the WD and DC installed. Note that even with a new shank to drop the hitch I am still high in the nose of the TT about 1”and could not get it to come down any more. The air bags were deflated of all air (took the Schrader valve out) while hooked up during the time the measurements were taken. The test drive confirms your statement that the wind resistance is eating up my reserve. I can get to highway speeds but when I hit a hill the MPH drop like a rock. So a new TV is in my future.
But the reason that I am looking to obtain the weights is that; until I get a new TV which looks like next spring. I plan on taking it out for one trip using the jeep as a TV and if the weather is nice I may not be able to stop myself from doing a one nighter. The furthest that we would be going is 45miles from home and no interstate. Anyway, if I get the weights, would you mind running the numbers for me?

Thanks again,

TOM G.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:56 PM   #34
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Hi Tom,

Good for you!

Before I comment back on your weighing, is this a 1 segment scale or a 3 segment scale? Truck stops often use 3 segment scales. They are 3 scales in one long platform. When the tractor trailer pulls on, their front axle is on 1 scale, the rear axle on the next scale and both trailer axles on the 3rd scale.

Here is a pic,


And it gives you a weight ticket like this




But... if you have access to a 1 position scale, that works just fine too. Let me know what you will be using so I can comment better. A couple of your steps did not totally line up right and I want to make sure I knew what scale you are using.

For FYI, when we do chain links, it is better to do links under load (tension) then links hanging free. Not all WD hitches have the same number of free chain links to even start with. Links under load dial it right in on how your set up is so we can understand better how the hitch is reacting and setup. And then there is frame width differences which force different links under load.

Did you get a chance to track the truck 100 feet straight and tweak the DC in so the cam and V's of the WD bar are dead on center? And mark them left and right once tweaked? So they go right back on the same side all the time.

Any chance of a side pic showing the hitch hooked up? A pic says a lot...

Let me know on the scales and I'll type some more. And yes I can help you crunch the numbers. No problem.

John
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:38 PM   #35
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John,

The scale that is closest to me (3mi) is a 1 position scale at a garden center. I can go to the flying J but it is about 25mi south on I-95 and until I felt everything was as good as it could get, I was trying to avoid the interstate. If you think that it is better or necessary I will run an alternate route to get there. Just let me know, I will do what is needed.

My reasoning for the scale positions I listed was to isolate all of the individual weights to eliminate all margins for error. But like I have said before, I am guessing at all of this so whatever you recommend is the direction I will go.

I did track the TV as per your direction and adjusted the cams so that the cam is riding in the bar indent when in the neutral position. The final check to insure that it was correct was to tow the TT around the p-lot making turns left and right a ½ dozen times before making the one 100ft run driving straight using an object in the distance as my guide. In the end, all checked out and the cams are resting in the center of the indent of the bar. I also marked both bars for future orientation (R & L).

I did not take any pic’s of the hitch with everything hooked up. I was meaning to do that but I was running out of daylight. I will hook everything back up tomorrow and take some pic’s and post.

That is a good point that the number of links hanging is insignificant. Now that you mentioned it I realize that it is useless information. I really need to meet you in person; I would love to pick your brain. The physics of how all this works is simply amazing and the degree of detail that you pick up on is astonishing to me. I will count the links in the morning and post the info.

Thanks once again,
Tom G
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:33 AM   #36
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Tom, the single position scale will work just fine. Type more later. No need to travel further.

Good job on setting up the DC. You did it the right way. Cool!
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:59 AM   #37
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Tom,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I'm on the west coast for work right now.

Need to end up with these weights by axle. Using single scale. Move truck each time to get axle (s) on scale. Fill truck with full gas and people going camping. On level ground go remeasure fender heights and record hitched and WD engaged.

1. TV & TT hitched "with" WD engaged. Now to do this.

-TV front axle
-TV rear axle
- Both TT axles on same scale

2. TV & TT hitched "with - OUT" WD. Now to do this.

Back up camper or swing around. Once on the scale, jack up tongue, unhook WD chains, let jack back down, let raw weight hang on the ball.
-TV front axle
-TV rear axle
- Both TT axles on same scale

You will have to make the call looking at it if you have to hook the chains back up each time to move the truck 10 to 15 feet. The truck back end is going to sink like a rock with no WD.

3. TV Only. Now to do this. Go unhitch the camper, leave the hitch head in the truck

-TV front axle
-TV rear axle

Come back with all the axle weight numbers. (8 axle weight readings)

Good luck

John

PS. If you want 1 more set of info and have time try this. Jack up tongue, take up 1 more chain link under tension, Let jack down.

4. TV & TT hitched "with" WD engaged. Now to do this.

-TV front axle
-TV rear axle
- Both TT axles on same scale
When done measure fender height on this new 1 more chain link setting. This gives you scale readings for at home with fender heights on what 1 link of tension will give you. For actual towing, we may not do 1 more link but 1 or 2 more hitch head teeth tilting back to the camper.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:43 AM   #38
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John,

Sorry it has taken me so long in getting back with a reply. But here is where I am at today.
Last Friday afternoon, I got everything loaded and hooked up and ready to go to the scales. The scale that I intended to use at the garden center had actually been replaced and the new scale had an incline and decline ramp so I was forced to go to the truck scale 25mi south.
For my own reassurance, I used the bath scale method to check tongue weight (so I knew I was at least in the ballpark), made some adjustments and off I went. There was a bit of wind but everything appeared to be fine until I got on the interstate. At a 65mph speed the Jeep could keep up but if you hit a hill you had to downshift. I must say that the wind resistance was a force to be reckoned with when using such a light tow vehicle, even a 10mph gust pushed hard enough to make you want both hands tight on the wheel. When I thought it could not get any worse a convoy of 4 trucks passed me on the left and “WHITE KNUCKLE TIME WAS ON”. The wind literally pushed the jeep out of the way. Well that was all it took to convince me that I needed a new TV. I pulled off at the next exit, headed back north NOT using the interstate and parked it.
I will have a new TV in the spring and will shoot you a line then when I have everything set up and had it weighed.

Thanks for all your help and getting me to this point.

TOM G.

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Old 11-10-2012, 09:16 PM   #39
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Hi Tom,

Sorry to hear about your wild ride. No worries getting back to us.

I really wish tow vehicle manufactures would rate their vehicles for a “travel trailer” being pulled by a tow ball behind the truck. Pulling a travel trailer is only part of the equation. Controlling one can be many times harder to obtain then pulling. The TT length, height, width and TT weight acting on the trucks running gear and wheel base is an area there is no rating for. While they do list the axle ratings and that is a key part of this, it is not the total answer. And do not get me started on the wording “Tow Rating”….

You have come to a sound decision and you have learned from this. Many of us have been there, myself included. In my case it was tongue weight that was the problem on my first camper and 1500 Tahoe. Pulling was not the problem and I did not have sway control issues but I sure had rear axle overload. After loosing several sleepless nights realized I screwed up, we loved the camper too much and the 2 year old truck had to go before I ended up in an accident that I could not live with myself afterwards. So I traded my 2002 Tahoe in on a used 2003 2500 Suburban and thanked every day since then I did. The first time I rolled down the driveway with the right suspension truck for the tongue weight I had I could feel it. Yes, I did the right thing.

From that realization point forward I researched and dug and read and starting figuring out all the towing variables dealing with travel trailers, WD hitches and TV’s I could find. My Chevy dealer and RV dealer did not do me much justice. So if anyone has a towing problem and wants to learn, we help. While there is a lot of good towing information available, there is also a lot of miss understood information. Some folks have their setup fall right in line quick, others have to work at it.

When you get your truck sorted out, you need any help, let us know. Glad to help in any way we/I can. Glad you made it back home safe.

John
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