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[Sunline Fan]

F-281SR
- '03 Unknown- Capt Skup

F-293SR
- '05 #8224 Nutmeg Floral- Endless Summer RV, Thurmont, MD
- '05 #8225 Country Blue Floral- ihsolutions, Jeff, Highland, MI
- '04 Unknown Fern Blue

F-297SR
- '03 #8092 Sky Blue in NY

F-304SR
- '03 #8007- St. Louis, MO, at IAA Auction Center
- '03 #8010 Blue- HappyCampers, Wellsville, PA
- '04 #8160 Fern Blue- Call of the Wild RV, Oxford, ME
- '03 Unknown Nutmeg- in KY/TN and RVIA #7242318.
- '03 Unknown Green Floral Mist @ Midland RV, Midland, MI
- '03 Unknown Nutmeg @ Abel RV in IL but NY plated- with Aluminum Wheels

F-311SR
- '03 #8012 Green Floral Mist- Gary & Kitty, Gerrardstown, WV
- '03 Unknown Nutmeg Floral- @ Roulottes Lupien 2000, St-Cyrille de Wendover, QC
- '03 Green Floral Mist Unknown- don't know the location, but it looks well taken care of.
- '03 Green Floral Mist Unknown @ Colton RV, North Tonawanda, NY

F-344SR
- '03 #8157- Like2Camp, Harrisburg, PA
- '02 Unknown in Tampa, FL (used four times)
- '03 Unknown in CA- jpwusn

F-345SR
- '03 #8018 Green Floral Mist- Call of the Wild RV, Oxford, ME
- '03 #8069 Sky Blue- Ace Fogdall RV, Cedar Rapids, IA
- '03 #8145 Sky Blue- delcon88, Kent Island, MD
- '02 Unknown Sandstone in Goldsboro, MD

I've also heard that the prototype FW was a tri-axle coach of an unknown model which was originally sold on the west side of MI. I don't know if this is true or not.

So is this 22/23?

Jon

[EMD_Driver]

Originally Posted by delcon88

you the man

I think you were a bit premature with that... Jon has me beat.... Hands down!

[kanyonkitty]

Jon,

FYI, our interior is "Green Floral Mist "

I told Gary earlier tonight, that you would know how many & where most of them were.

Kitty

[JohnB]

Sunline Fan again holds his title well!!!

I surpised the frame numbers where not listed....

[Sunline Fan]

Originally Posted by JohnB

I surpised the frame numbers where not listed....

The FW's didn't have frame numbers, unfortunately. The purpose of the frame numbers was to give the lot person at Sunline something to identify the coaches by when they staged them for delivery. They put the last four of the VIN there so he wouldn't have to get off his tractor to see what coach it was. Then the frame number was written on there for a count for a particular dealer delivery. I've seen some numbers written on pin boxes before, but the ones I've seen are five digits and I think are dealer stock numbers. They don't resemble VIN's.

For example, your 2499, I remember a 6040 and a 1 with a circle around it. That's 100% from memory so correct me if I'm wrong. The number one indicates the first of x coaches (probably only one or two though, in this case) to be delivered to Ferris Industries. Some dealers, like Dufour's RV in Fitchburg, MA, would have taken quite a few more at one delivery. General RV here in MI would have had higher batch numbers in previous years if they hadn't given up on Sunline ahead of time and sold more than the like 15 2007's they did.

That being said, and since the FW's weren't built in high numbers, they were usually like special order things. Unlike a line of TT's, which when closely packed together look quite similar, these things were so rare that they stood out in the crowd, so there really wasn't much of a need for something else to identify them with. I think there could have also been a good chance that the tractor that Sunline had to move these things around with wasn't really equipped with something to move a king pin FW. Thinking back, the king pin FW's were around in the early '70's, but that quickly died off until the late '80's. They had only a few models with king pins (instead of goose necks) and then in the early '90's they all converted over to king pins. FWIW, I only know of 26 Sunline FW's from the 1989-1996 model years. So they stood out then too, and it really didn't necessitate the equipment upgrade.

In fact, and sorry about going off on all these tangents, I sort of think Sunline dropped the FW's right at the wrong time, in 1996. I feel 1996 was about the time that things really started going longer and people started desiring larger trailers for full timing in. I've seen with the Newmar's that they seemed to really step up their game around 2000 to make the product more luxurious, so Sunline stepped back into the game a bit late to be successful. I really don't understand what else would have been an issue. I've heard on numerous occasions that the price point was too high for them to be successful. Yes, a new 281SR was about 43k and a new 345SR was about 51K. But, people seemed to be thinking too much with their checkbooks and not enough with their eyes. This isn't just a standard Sunline travel trailer. The 345SR may be 21k more than a 360SR, but there are major differences in components.

Just for kicks, I looked up what the original MSRP on a comparable model would be. We have friends with a Jayco very similar to the 345SR, and is a 2003 model. I'll admit Jayco offered many more options for interiors at the time because I know someone else with a twin, same year but different floorplan and interior. They have a cherry wood option in there. Anyway, the Jayco 3710's MSRP was just shy of 54k.

Comparing to a Nu-Wa (also now an orphan), a similar size FW was 49k. However, a comparable size Mountain Aire was about 85k. Also, a similar size DRV Mobile Suites was about 54k.

Yes, I have spent a few minutes on NADA. Interestingly, since I know some would be curious, base current values put the 345SR at 19,540/23,540 and the 3k more MSRP Jayco at 21,660/26,100.

So all in all, I think the main problem with the new FW launch was simply marketing. They had a great coach, no doubt about it. Yes, they could have made aluminum wheels standard and added a darker wood option, but I'm not sure that would account to all that much. I think the primary problem was the target group of customers. I came back into the Sunline lifestyle full speed just around the time they had a dismal first year of FW's, if even a full year. So they were panicking. I suspect they took whatever prototype they had to Louisville and it went over very well, as it should have. However, I think Sunline's approach was to pick up their customers who were interested in upgrading from a Sunline TT to a FW. As I could imagine, there were probably quite a few customers expressing interest in doing such a thing at the time so they decided to step in. But I figure the percentage of people who were actually able to upgrade to one was probably pretty slim. Instead of targeting existing customers, they needed to target newcomers/outsiders. Get someone interested in downsizing from a motorhome. Get someone interested in starting off with a FW. Anyone new would have been good.

Also, I think dealers are a key part. Sunline did have some great dealers. However, it's pretty easy to get a sense of the caliber of a dealership just by looking at their website. I'm not talking about all the flash/java, etc, I'm talking about the inventory. When I see a dealer that the most expensive diesel pusher, if they even have a diesel pusher, is about $110,000, I can tell that dealer is probably great for service, very loyal to customers, and probably doesn't do all that high in sales. They bank on the customer loyalty to keep coming back for service and parts, since that and F&I are the most profitable parts to an RV dealer. These are certainly the dealers I like best, they will bend over backwards for someone. The dealer I got 6236 from is (was) this way. They had limited products but that salesman stayed right by us during the hitching up process, got us one of his drills when all our batteries went dead (and someone didn't think we needed the charger...), and got us some water to drink. They also had no problem with me going through the owners manuals to the other coaches, which they had stored away, and they let me have free use of the copier. At the opposing kinds of dealers, they would pawn this service off on someone else and go look for their next customer.

However, I think Sunline needed to find one of these opposing kinds of dealers to sell the fifth wheels. As I said, when a dealer has the most expensive DP at 110k, I'd say 90% of the people who come in there won't be willing to spend 70% of that, and probably 60% of the people won't be willing to spend 55k. Then those percentages will slash farther if it doesn't pertain to a motorized coach where a tow vehicle isn't required. A 50k FW plus a 45k truck equals 95k which is even less of a percentage of customers than those looking at 77k motorhomes (which would probably be a decent gas Class A or a decked out Class C). However, when these numbers are all reconfigured for a dealer whose most expensive DP is, say, 200k, this coach option fits into an entirely new economic bracket. Now almost one out of every two people to walk in would probably be interested in something like this. And then add in those who already have trucks and might already have a FW and be interested in an upgrade and may have considered a MH but could be persuaded otherwise.

While the people do have a greater chance of getting a heck of a deal at the smaller dealers on an expensive coach, they won't be willing to do that all the time. A larger dealer will retain a little higher selling price and then of course be willing to sell more of them causing the manufacturer to produce more.

I suspect this same kind of thing happened with the Que. Sunline did pursue new dealers, which was good, and they got them in unique areas (N. Hollywood, CA, Deerfield Beach, FL, etc), but again I think the price point was a bit high for the competition.

Sunline started out with the hollow lightweights and selling them somewhat cheap at dealers with solid competition. Then they evolved the product to become a classy traveling machine but they didn't change the dealer base, who had become to love them dearly due to the low warranty and service problems.

Present the customer with a cheaper alternative and most of the time they'll probably take it, at least with the RV industry. So become the cheaper alternative, without lowering the price! There is why I think Sunline started the decent about 2001-2002 and never recovered, and unfortunately the new investment group never took their blinders off to investigate the competition to realize this problem. I do contribute a lot to the fact that they had a poor choice of models, but they did and they didn't. They had a poor choice of models for the dealers they used, which I think did require more family friendly floorplans. While still needed at a different type of dealer, they could continue to have many of the models they thought were good, like the 2363 and 2499.

Again, sorry for the long winded and somewhat irrelevant response. I get to typing and just don't stop sometimes . It only took me a little over an hour to type!

Jon

[delcon88]

Jon you not the man you da king

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Sunline Fan

For example, your 2499, I remember a 6040 and a 1 with a circle around it. That's 100% from memory so correct me if I'm wrong. The number one indicates the first of x coaches (probably only one or two though, in this case) to be delivered to Ferris Industries. Some dealers, like Dufour's RV in Fitchburg, MA, would have taken quite a few more at one delivery. General RV here in MI would have had higher batch numbers in previous years if they hadn't given up on Sunline ahead of time and sold more than the like 15 2007's they did.


Jon

Jon

WOW..... Cool read.

Yes, your memory of my frame number is correct.... I had to go look it up

John

[ihsolutions]

Jon, great post. I learned a lot. I'm curious, where'd you learn all that? Did you work for a sunline dealer at one point?

The dealer in Vermont where I bought my 293SR told me that he had been a Sunline dealer for many years, and that the Sunline people convinced him to "try one" of the fifth wheel units. So he did, but I don't think he tried very hard to market it and once it had sat for a couple years, he kind of forgot about it. Then he took it on a trip personally (some nascar race somewhere) but still didn't remove the plastic from the carpet, etc.

Based on the size, compared to other brands, it's heavy. Maybe that was part of the issue. At just under 33' it's over 10k pounds. For comparison, you can get other full profile fifth wheels a couple feet longer coming in around the same weight.

Still, I love the coach, and continue to be impressed at the very high quality of such things as the cabinetry, faucets, and especially how nice the carpeting is, even in comparison to current production 5th wheels costing $100k+.

[kanyonkitty]

Gary & I went to the Chantilly, VA RVshow this past saturday. I think the only thing we saw that we felt was equal to or better than our Sunline was an Excel. WOW, are they NICE. The Sunline has to last a lot of years, so when it becomes mandatory to replace, we have enuff saved for an Excel. Another brand, "Open Range" did have some nice features, but would need to research more about it. There were some really beautiful rigs there, but as we all know, beauty is only skin deep, and "most" of us are looking for nice appointments, PLUS a quality built/equipped rig. Right now, Excel leads the pack from what I saw at the show.

Kitty

[Sunline Fan]

Hi Jeff,

I did work at General for about a year, but after they had sold all their new Sunline inventory. They didn't seem to know a whole lot about the product or company, and a lot of it could probably be contributed to the fact that they had dealt so little with Sunline in recent times. I do also think as a dealer, they really didn't get to learn a whole lot about the company itself. Had I had the opportunity to talk to someone more in corporate who would have dealt with the company more often, I may have found out more. One salesman who became a parts associate I talked with the most, and salesmen really only get to talk to the factory reps when they came in. I did work near an employee who was responsible for submitting warranty paperwork to get things approved and he was very willing to talk about Sunline. I think Sunline was probably his favorite. For one, he never had many warranty claims for Sunline's to begin with. The one thing that he told me at one point and that another employee in the cubicle agreed with is that Sunline was by far the most conservative RV company of them all. I had to do filing at one point and saw the file folder where they put Sunline warranty work orders. Of course it was empty at this point, but they said it never had more than like one or two in it at any time. Compare that to the Keystone folder...which was exponentially larger.

A lot of it I learned through e-mails back and forth between Sunline employees, with quite a few conversations having taken place after they closed. One time just after I decided to create this production record thing, I set out to get the best description of VIN's that I could, as well as the frame number. The one e-mail response I got to that has been, without a doubt, the most important e-mail of all.

Jon