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Old 07-05-2007, 09:32 PM   #21
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TrailBlazer

Thanks for that Sunline link. I thought I had read most all of the site, but I missed that one.

So where does this leave us? Good question. Still thinking.

Hutch, I have some industrial casters catalogs at work. I'll do some digging and see if it floats up anything on the impact rating.

Thanks

John
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Old 07-06-2007, 05:25 AM   #22
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John,

Impact ratings on industrial casters would be very helpful for those looking to use those types of casters as drag wheels.

But how would you calculate the impact forces of your trailer?

I would think that the trailer’s weight, length, rear overhang length, as well as the speed (vertical & horizontal speed) and angle you drag at may all affect the drag impact force. There may be and probably are other parameters that affect the impact force that I haven’t thought of.

Since everyone’s impact force would be different and the force would also vary depending on the parameters of each drag, each individual would probably need to calculate their worst case impact force to aid in selecting the right caster to use.

Do you agree?
Hutch
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Old 07-06-2007, 09:56 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PTHutch
John,

Impact ratings on industrial casters would be very helpful for those looking to use those types of casters as drag wheels.

But how would you calculate the impact forces of your trailer?

I would think that the trailer’s weight, length, rear overhang length, as well as the speed (vertical & horizontal speed) and angle you drag at may all affect the drag impact force. There may be and probably are other parameters that affect the impact force that I haven’t thought of.

Since everyone’s impact force would be different and the force would also vary depending on the parameters of each drag, each individual would probably need to calculate their worst case impact force to aid in selecting the right caster to use.

Do you agree?
Hutch
Hutch, on top of all that, Camping World (and other suppliers) only sell one version of the swivel skid wheels - 4" diameter by 2" wide wheels in a swivel caster. From looking through what's available from Northern Products, Harbor Freight and others, the biggest load rating I could find in a similar caster is around 900#. If you're willing to go to a slightly larger wheel, you can get up around 1500# ratings.

So, since the RV supply industry is using just one load rating for all different size trailers, all we gotta do is figure out what that approximate rating might be and then it's off to Harbor Freight to get them. That would probably be more than sufficient for trailers up to around 8,000 GVWR which would include nearly all of our Sunlines.
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Old 07-06-2007, 10:21 AM   #24
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Hi Steve,

I think Camping World has discontinued selling the frame mounted skid wheel / casters. The only way I’ve been able to find the 5” wheels I bought on Camping World’s web site is by searching on the specific item number and then the page says they are sold out. I bought mine at one of Camping World store’s clearance rack.

The 5" frame mounted skid wheels I got are by Paktron, and they market 3 sizes of skid wheels, 4” , 5” , and 6”. They say they’ve designed and built these skid wheels for different impact forces based on size of the RV including:

4” the recommend for Small- medium sized trailers and 5th wheels to 24' in length.
5” they recommend for Small, medium, and large travel trailers, 5th wheels and class "C" motorhomes.
6” they recommend for Largest and heaviest class "A" motor homes, 5th wheels and travel trailers.

Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not trying to say these wheels are better than the industry casters. I think the industry casters are a viable alternative and probably a much cheaper way to go as you have pointed out.

You also have a good point wrt figuring out which is the proper caster to get. Paktron offers 3 different sizes. As you've stated, we just need to figure out the impact / weight ratings for the 3 different sizes based on Paktron’s usage recommendations and then go find the equivalent industry caster.

Hutch
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Old 07-06-2007, 10:55 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PTHutch
The 5" frame mounted skid wheels I got are by Paktron, and they market 3 sizes of skid wheels, 4” , 5” , and 6”. They say they’ve designed and built these skid wheels for different impact forces based on size of the RV including:

4” the recommend for Small- medium sized trailers and 5th wheels to 24' in length.
5” they recommend for Small, medium, and large travel trailers, 5th wheels and class "C" motorhomes.
6” they recommend for Largest and heaviest class "A" motor homes, 5th wheels and travel trailers.

Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not trying to say these wheels are better than the industry casters. I think the industry casters are a viable alternative and probably a much cheaper way to go as you have pointed out.

You also have a good point wrt figuring out which is the proper caster to get. Paktron offers 3 different sizes. As you've stated, we just need to figure out the impact / weight ratings for the 3 different sizes based on Paktron’s usage recommendations and then go find the equivalent industry caster.

Hutch
And I think that brings us right back to the two casters that Bob (RPierce) recommended earlier in the thread; the 1200# and the 2500# ones from Northern Tool.

I'm thinking that two 1200# casters on the back of our 5,500# GVWR trailer should work just fine. The factory skid bars are worn part way through, so I really have to deal with this soon.
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:49 PM   #26
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Fellow Campers

Sorry this too so long. Been camping and Inet access has been hit and miss and unreliable. See if this helps any for those trying to figure out to add wheels or not. These are just some points of what is going on that I have thought up while camping this week.

See here a typical V bar on a 2004 T2499.


The V Bar hangs down 5 1/4” from the frame. Adding any caster with over all height more than this on my TT would create the drag point sooner. By how much, depends on a few things. If the TV hitch is setup to pull the TT level, nose up or nose down changes the drag point. Towing level is best. Next is a very slight nose down as you cannot always exactly dial in level. Level to slight nose down gives you a certain running drag clearance. Being nose up, reduces the drag clearance.

Each TT will have a different drag point, due to pure vertical height and the amount of TT overhang aft of the TT axles. If the vertical clearance was the same between a 26 foot TT and a 32 foot TT, the 32 foot TT “might” drag sooner when the TT drops in a hole or the ground behind the axle rises. The TT suspension bounces and the further aft of the axles the bigger the bounce amplitude and the sooner the V bar will contact the ground. The other things to keep in mind is our Sunline’s are setup low to create easier towing. The non slide models most have under slung axles like mine. On the larger slide models the axles are not under slung as they need slide clearance over the axles. It wasn’t until this past year when Sunline started putting slides in the 195SR,’s where they have slides on low slung axles. The slide is not over the axles.

If you want to see your drag angle, put a string under your rear tire, extend it out behind the TT, pull it taught and lift until it touches the V Bar bottom. You can now see what will hit first, the BAL scissor stabilizers, the rear bumper or the V Bar. In my case the V Bar hits first. This pic does not show it well, but it hits a good 2 to 3" early before anything else.

Again this is only one of the drag types where the TT drops into a hole or comes out of a gas station with pavement high up in the air. I used a yellow tape measure so you can see it in the pic. Oh and the sledge hammer, that is just my friendly tape measure holder for the pic. Yours is optional.


I also tried to help answer “some” of the force issues. There are many variables to the forces exerted on the V bar area. Some of the obvious ones are:

How much a TT weighs
How far from the rear axles the V Bar is.
The interior layout and what weight is aft of the TT axles.

What you see here is the pure vertical lift forces. These are the simplest. If what ever you are adding cannot handle these simple forces, they will have a harder time taking the dynamic in motion forces. Like trying to rip a caster off when driving forward and the same time you run into the bump, rut etc that creates the drag. I used my Sherline Tongue scale on my floor jack and created the displacement on the rear corner of the TT. I stopped when I did not want to push the test any further. The forces where not exactly linear pure vertical lift, but not off by too much. The one thing that is for sure, the harder the drag and higher the TT lifts off the ground, the larger the force is on the V Bar.

The unknown in all this is, what is the lift or rise of a “normal” drag?? Good question. Each of us have differnt rough spots.

Here is a pic showing the setup.


Here is a chart showing the data


Here is my TT setup. I also included the loaded GVW and axles weights of the camper. I set my hitch up to tow level to slightly down.. I measured the running clearance at a rest stop today and I have 8 3/8” running clearance,. When the TT is level it is 8 1/4”


Here is the base layout of my camper. The rear wall, where the V Bar is located, is 87 ¼” behind the rear TT axle.


So, if you have a 2004 T2499, loaded to 6,590 lb, have the hitch setup to tow level, you now have an idea what some of the forces going on back thre are.

Good luck and hope this helps. Use this data as only what one camper has on his setup, it is not a recommendation to change your TT. Your rig I’m sure is different and you have to figure what to add or not.

In my case I have only drug hard once that I actually "heard" that nasty grinding noise going on back there . It was one of those nasty high up gas stations that got me. Pull out and bam Now I know to go slow or else....

John
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Old 07-08-2007, 08:25 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PTHutch
John,

Impact ratings on industrial casters would be very helpful for those looking to use those types of casters as drag wheels.

But how would you calculate the impact forces of your trailer?

I would think that the trailer’s weight, length, rear overhang length, as well as the speed (vertical & horizontal speed) and angle you drag at may all affect the drag impact force. There may be and probably are other parameters that affect the impact force that I haven’t thought of.

Since everyone’s impact force would be different and the force would also vary depending on the parameters of each drag, each individual would probably need to calculate their worst case impact force to aid in selecting the right caster to use.

Do you agree?
Hutch
Hutch,

Yes, I agree each of us have a different drag setup. However "I think" the V Bar setup from Sunline is fairly the same across the board. Mine is a piece of 1/4" thick flat bar, about 2" wide 5 1/4" hanging down.

Your rig weighs more than mine, and your over hang is more. Is your V bar about the same?

I looked up the Paktron caster site you linked us to. Thanks. I read the one liner about impact.

Strangely they do not even give a load rating on the caster. The urethane cover on the wheel OD is generally a surface for rolling on concrete, dairy brick, etc where the caster does not want to mark the surface. In this case, I think it just comes along for the ride.

Now to the impact, are the webs of your caster wheels steel or plastic? I’m assuming steel, but again the wheel is only part of the impact. The bearing and fork have to take the beating as well. I can't tell from the Paktron site much technically about the caster.

Paktron I'm sure buys these things from a caster manufacture. Do you know of any type of numbers or manufacture markings on the wheel itself? If we have that, we can search the manufacture out to get the load
rating. OR just call Paktron if they actually have them. We are all assuming they have put a lot of “science” into this sizing. By the way they rate them for use, I do not think they have as the variables are many.

At this point one of the questions I think is, how much force does it take to bend the V bar? I could create one and force it to failure in a pure straight on loading in a hydraulic press, but that will not give the dynamic running loads.

This sort of leaves us to, get the heaviest one you can afford, fits in your application. If the drag is too hard, something will give. V Bar, caster or the 4 bolts holding the caster on. You can play grade of bolts if we wanted to.

A rolling drag is better then a grinding one I would think. The ideal thing might be a vertical bar of steel about ¼” higher than the bottom of the caster. When the drag occurs, the wheel rolls over the problem and the vertical bar grinds, makes a lot of noise so you know you are dragging to signal slow down, stop or back up.

Like I said earlier, a grinding V bar drag hurts the TT as much as a rolling one up to the point the V bar rips off.

I have not made it to work yet to look up in the caster books. Will do this week to see if any thing turns up.

John
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Old 07-09-2007, 06:46 PM   #28
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I had every intention of getting my axles flipped this morning at my dealership (Stoltzfus RV, Adamstown, PA) - made the appointment after my maiden voyage on Memorial Day weekend. As I was leaving for this past weekend, I once again scraped on my way out of the driveway and actually made a nice flat spot on the bottom of the V-shaped drag bar. After reading Jon's response to my question about hitch height adjustment, I called my service manager, Terry, and changed the axle flip installation to a set of caster wheels installation. They actually got around to installing them today, so I went back and picked it up on my way home from work. They are 5" caster wheels mounted on a steel plate which is welded to the frame. They did a great job at less than half the price of the axle flip. By going with the casters, I still have the same hitch configuration for my T2553, T-2051 and my tandem axle utility trailer.
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Old 07-05-2009, 05:11 PM   #29
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Has anyone done this mod with a 195sr? I drag the heck out of mine especially on the drivers side. I think I lowered my hitch as far as it can go to get the nose of the trailer down and it should be better but I think these casters are a great idea.

If a 195sr owner out there could do me the favor or taking a pic of your metal skids and measure them for me I'd really appreciate it since both of mine have already taken hits I'm not sure how far I should have the casters hang down.

Thanks much,

Billy
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Old 07-06-2009, 07:19 AM   #30
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Hi all,
In a pinch, it seems that temporarily releasing the WD bars would drop the front and gain you some clearance at the rear.
For those with rear wheel drive, this will also give you more traction on slippery ground.
FWIW
Roar
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:44 AM   #31
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The triangular skids on my 2453 hung down 6":

When one got bent, it became necessary to replace them right away:

The casters I purchased were coincidentally the exact same height:
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