Adding more Scissor Jacks

[emam]

I was getting peeved by the amount of sway in the coach when the scissor jacks were down.

No matter how hard I put them down, it seemed like there was always a bit of movement inside the coach. Since the coach was going into General RV for a few other repairs and upgrades, I asked if they could bolt on an extra pair of jacks.

We lucked out because they had a set in the scrap bin that they gave me at a steal of a price. We had them put in front of the axles incase road debris was to get kicked up, it wouldnt be as likely to hit them if they were mounted behind the axles. This is also right were the kitchen and bathroom is on our 2499 model, so it seemed a good place for some extra support.



Now, when we're camped, there is not a bit of movement inside. I think these Scissor Jacks retailed for $80, so even if we had paid full price, it would have still benn worth it.

Again, we're Happy Campers!!

Pat

[tinybluetj]

We are replacing the swing down ones on the Que with the crank down scissor type- so much more stable!

[PTHutch]

Pat,

That’s a great idea. I’m going to look and see if I can add an extra set to ours. I even think I might have an extra set of jacks in the garage. But I don’t think I can put them in front of the wheels because of the SR. I’ll have to check out our frame to see where I can put them.

Hutch

[emam]

Hey Hutch, for you guys with the big slides, I thought you would have all done this a long time ago. I'll have to snap a picture of the side with the Sewer on it, because I think General RV had to move some stuff to get it tucked right up close.

It might have just been some of the electrical wires for the brakes, but I'm thinking they had to move something.

Man what a difference it makes.

Pat

[PTHutch]

Pictures would be great, thanks.

We have the slide on the ODS and the steps on the DS which I think will inhibit from installing jacks in front of the wheels.

I’m thinking about putting them behind the wheels and attaching a mud flap in front of the jack to protect them from stuff thrown up from the wheels. I’m figuring on attaching an angle iron when bolting the jacks onto the frame, then attaching the mud flap to the angle iron. Right now it just a conceptual idea until I look at the frame and see exactly what I have. I will be bringing the trailer home this week so I’ll be able to look at it then.

[Sunline Fan]

Some friends of ours with fivers have used those small portable screw type jacks in front of and behind their axles for a number of years. While it's not as noticeable on smaller units, those big ones really move around near the axles. For those of you wanting to do this mod but are worried about stuff being kicked up at the jack, you can always carry some of these:



Jon

P.S. They make great feet for a household bedframe too. I've been using the base parts to a set I got with my 1550 for about 2 years.

[JohnB]

Hutch

I’m catching up on old posts and just happened to come across something on this topic this weekend while out camping.

First off I’m glad to see Eman’s helped his TT. As they may be on my mod’s list too.

Now to the learning.

When I made my expanding wheel chocks, they greatly helped the wiggle problem, Night and day actually. However they are not 100% rock solid in my opinion. And DW reminds me often, “You need to go tighten something” as now once you take the step to the next level, which is expanding wheel chocks, that night and day difference only last for a few months until you get use to the new level of less wiggle. I would call the expanding wheel chocks, 90% effective for anti wiggle. They are 110% effective as a wheel chock and no roll though. Did not know if you where using expanding wheel chocks or not.

Here are mine.


OK now to what I learned this weekend and what may apply to you but not to Eman and my TT or any other non slide TT.

I camped with a buddy who had a 34 foot Skyline Nomad with 2 slides. And my buddy had just added a 3rd Bal scissors stabilizer in front of his axles. So me being inquisitive as I am, quizzed him on how it worked as I was wanting to do this, just like Eman’s.

Well the reaction was the opposite. Here said they did not help like he thought. He said that when he tightened up the middle one, it lifted up some on one of the other 2 at the ends. Making it sort of teeter totter as he had to go back and play with the ends and then the middle etc. He ended up one fighting the other to get them balanced as with 3 legs, 2 always win.

Well it never dawned on me until I say Emans post here on why his may work so great on a non slide unit and the Nomad with 2 slides is not so great.

Frame strength. My 2004 T2499 is made of 5” channel iron. In 2005, Sunline changed the frame to 6” I beam. Most likely Emans’s is 6” I beam. I know mine has a good degree of flex to it. When I do axle work on mine and jack up the frame behind the rear axle, I set the stabilizers as an added safety on top of my jack stands. When I jack up higher, I can see the middle lift and then one of the Bal stabilizers will lift off the ground.

Point in all this:

Emans and my TT are non slide TT’s. Those frames have some flex in them. Adding a center stabilizer could benefit in good anti wiggle control as the when you set the middle one, you are taking up some of the frame flex and not lifting off on the other 2.

On a good heavy slide TT frame made of 8 or 10” I beam, the frame is a lot more rigid. It does not flex like the smaller non slide frame. So lifting in the middle on your rigid frame “may” do the same thing that happened on Nomad TT and not give the same end results as Eman is seeing.

The only real way to know is a test. Maybe before actually buy and add a full blown set of Bal Scissors to be as disappointed as my camping bud, find 2 bottle jacks or the screw jacks like Sunline fan pointed to make a test. If they work and create the stability you are after and not create a stabilizer balancing act, then after the test go for the Bal’s.

Also if you do not have the expanding wheel chocks, they will give you an order of magnitude shift of anti wiggle all by them selves.

Hope this helps

John

[Sunline Fan]

Originally Posted by JohnB

On a good heavy slide TT frame made of 8 or 10” I beam, the frame is a lot more rigid. It does not flex like the smaller non slide frame. So lifting in the middle on your rigid frame “may” do the same thing that happened on Nomad TT and not give the same end results as Eman is seeing.

I jacked mine up today to put on the new center cap or the LF wheel and I was surprised how much the frame flexed. Even though it's a slide model, they must have used a little smaller frame on the low profile models. I'll have to measure it tomorrow.

Jon

[PTHutch]

John,

Thanks for the suggestions and idea.

I have & use use the BAL expanding wheel chock:


I use it on the ODS wheels, not sure if it makes a difference to what side you use them. I use it on the ODS because I also hang our water filters off them, which the ODS location is convenient to the city water intake.

You make a good point about a center jack creating a teetering affect. I’m not sure what size I-beams were used on our frame. I think their either 8” or 10” though.

I'll try your idea before installing a center jack. I have a set of BAL scissor jacks and the screw jacks, so I can try the test with either type of jack.

On another similar topic, I saw someplace about someone using the base of the screw type jack that Jon showed under the BAL scissor jacks. They used them to minimize how much they had to crank down the BAL jacks. I tried that, and I can state from experience that it made the wobble and wiggle worse.

Hutch

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by PTHutch

I have & use use the BAL expanding wheel chock:

I use it on the ODS wheels, not sure if it makes a difference to what side you use them. I use it on the ODS because I also hang our water filters off them, which the ODS location is convenient to the city water intake.

Hutch

Hutch,

OK, what does ODS stand for? Outside Driver Side??

On the chocks do you only use one or 2?

I use 2, one on each side. By using 2, the anti wiggle is helped more I would think and I make sure the TT will not want to try to pivot on the one side and move.

I know having only 1 side will not allow the TT to roll away, but it could shift the tongue given the right ground setup.

I may also be a little over cautious as I had 1 riding lawn mower and 1 tractor roll down the hill on me before. Events spaced about 10 years apart. Both now a long time ago and thank goodness no one was hurt other than my pride. Gear shift hopped out of gear and gravity took over. A lesson I will never forget.

Thanks

John

[Sunline Fan]

John,

I can't believe you hadn't heard of that before. ODS stands for Opposing Door Side. DS just means Door Side.

On the subject of Hutch's wheel chocks, I have a set of two and I haven't used them much, but hopefully I will sometime. They seem like the best kind available. I never get to stay in any of mine to justify installing them. Heck, I don't always put down the scissor jacks when I just bring it home to work on it!

Jon

[PTHutch]

Originally Posted by JohnB

On the chocks do you only use one or 2?

John,

I use 1 set. I use standard wheel chocks between the door side wheels.

In my opinion, the wobble and wiggle feeling is relative. You may be able to reduce it, but you’ll never be able to eliminate it. It seems like with a slide room, it’s a little more prevalent and more difficult to reduce it.

JTRV produces and markets stabilizers, which they claim stops chassis sway. This product peaked my interest, but our sway isn’t that severe to justify their cost, plus not sure how well they work.

Thanks for the advice.
Hutch

[Steve Collins]

Originally Posted by JohnB

Frame strength. My 2004 T2499 is made of 5” channel iron. In 2005, Sunline changed the frame to 6” I beam. Most likely Emans’s is 6” I beam. I know mine has a good degree of flex to it. When I do axle work on mine and jack up the frame behind the rear axle, I set the stabilizers as an added safety on top of my jack stands. When I jack up higher, I can see the middle lift and then one of the Bal stabilizers will lift off the ground.

My '99 T-2453 is a virtually a mirror image of your T-2499's. It has rear bedroom, front couch & swivel rocker with mid bathroom and galley. The floor plan dimensions all appear the same as your newer rigs, just reversed.

My two main frame rails are FOUR INCH C-CHANNEL (which I just measured to double verify.) No wonder my unit is GVWR'd at only 5,500 lbs!!! The '05's and newer are all rated at 7,000 lbs., probably because of the 6" I-beam frames. I bet the '04's and older with the 5" frames had GVWR ratings in the 6K range.

Anyway, my point is that my frame has lots more flex than the newer units; probably too much. I can actually make the frame flex so much that the front door won't open or close by placing a jack just forward of the door. By lifting the frame at that point, the door frame drops about 1/4" and pinches the corner of the door.

I use the wooden wheel clamps that JohnB designed (thanks for the idea!) and Sunline Fan's removeable jackstands. Never got around to upgrading to the crank-down stabilizers as I had the jackstands when we got the Sunline in '99. If find that I have to be very careful in placing the jackstands, or the front door will have all kinds of problems with opening or closing or latching.

Now I find myself wondering if it is possible to strenthen and stiffen the frame, possibly by adding more material alongside the existing main frame rails, particularly from the A-frame back to the axles.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Steve Collins

My two main frame rails are FOUR INCH C-CHANNEL (which I just measured to double verify.) No wonder my unit is GVWR'd at only 5,500 lbs!!! The '05's and newer are all rated at 7,000 lbs., probably because of the 6" I-beam frames. I bet the '04's and older with the 5" frames had GVWR ratings in the 6K range.


I use the wooden wheel clamps that JohnB designed (thanks for the idea!)

Steve

The 2004 T2499, 5" channel iron frame and 5" channel tongue is rated as a 7,000 GVWR TT.

The 2005 T2499 and newer, 6" I beam frame with 4" channel tongue is rated at 7,000 GVWR.

The wood chocks, yes I built mine, but I picked up the idea from another fellow camper. So I cannot take credit for the design, only making my own and refined the idea a little. Sort of what these forums are all about. Ideas....

Strengthening your frame. Adding a full-length 4" channel next to each side you have now would help on the strength and transfer it to the axles. I do not know what this will do to other things, if it is good or bad. Have to think on that some. I know you will be shocked if you pull a thin wire down the length of the frame to use as a straight edge and just look at how wavy it is.

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by Sunline Fan

John,

I can't believe you hadn't heard of that before. ODS stands for Opposing Door Side. DS just means Door Side.

Yup, never knew. Learn something new every day here on Sunline Club.

Thanks

John

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by PTHutch

JTRV produces and markets stabilizers, which they claim stops chassis sway. This product peaked my interest, but our sway isn’t that severe to justify their cost, plus not sure how well they work.

Thanks for the advice.
Hutch

Hutch

H'mm, I could make them.

Thanks for the idea

John

[Steve Collins]

Originally Posted by JohnB

Strengthening your frame. Adding a full-length 4" channel next to each side you have now would help on the strength and transfer it to the axles. I do not know what this will do to other things, if it is good or bad. Have to think on that some. I know you will be shocked if you pull a thin wire down the length of the frame to use as a straight edge and just look at how wavy it is.

John,

I would not be at all shocked at this point. I put a small bottle jack under the frame by the door, and was able to adjust the thing up and down a lot more than I wanted to see.

The problem is bad enough at this point that the flexing has caused the skin at the top of the doors to fracture. I will probably have to find a small piece of skin to cover that before too much longer. Luckily, it is fairly well protected from the weather by the overhang of the awning.

I am not looking to increase the load capacity of the trailer. That is dictated as much by the axles as the frame anyway, and I would continue to treat the rig as a 5,500# GVWR unit after any fix is applied.

Since I have detected no appreciable flex issues between the rear axle and the rear end of the trailer, I am thinking that I will look into having additional material added from the rear axle forward to the A-frame. That should stiffen the frame sufficiently to relieve this flexing issue in the area where is it problematic.

My only concerns are:

Do I need to use another C-channel of similiar shape and size? Or can I use something smaller and lighter. I pretty much figure that I don't need to double the strength of the frame (or more.)

Can the new material be adequately connected to the existing frame by welding alone, or will I have to drill and install a bunch of bolts as well?

How much weight will the new material add? That could be important.

We have a real good RV repair shop right here (Ballantyne RV). I think I will go have a talk with the service manager and see what they think.

[Sunline Fan]

Originally Posted by Steve Collins

The problem is bad enough at this point that the flexing has caused the skin at the top of the doors to fracture. I will probably have to find a small piece of skin to cover that before too much longer. Luckily, it is fairly well protected from the weather by the overhang of the awning.

Steve,

What skin are you talking about, the door skin or the aluminum skin?

If it's the aluminum, Sunline put a seam in the aluminum above many of the doors, so maybe your putty tape is just showing through.

Jon

[Al in PA]

I have a small stress fracture above one of my doors on my T-2051. I called the factory before they closed about this problem. They told me to drill a small hole at the end of the crack to keep it from spreading any further and to apply clear silicone sealer to keep water from getting behind the aluminum skin.

[JohnB]

Steve

See here if you check in on this post. See here:1999 T2453 Fraem flex

John