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Old 06-17-2008, 11:38 AM   #1
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Mark
Q&A on towing expectations, on camping costs, and other

Recently, some people have asked me about "my hobby", and what to expect if they purchased a trailer.

I find these discussions difficult, because if I were in their shoes, I might not even get started with "RV'ing"--- under the current economic conditions…..

My quick list of Q&A for them is:

-Are you planning on buying a new tow vehicle?
-Will your tow vehicle also be used for commuting?
-Will you be financing a trailer?
-How many people will camp with you?
-How often, and how close to home, will you camp?
-Have you thought about how much you are willing to spend on new TV or trailer payments, gas, insurance, storage.

I usually illustrate with a "simple" example,like this weekend. I went to Blue Knob State Park in Pavia, PA.

-The reservation for 4 nights, of electric, and a pet site was about $75.
-It was a 200 mile (round trip) commute--with very little driving once I got there.
-My Silverado's 5.3 V8, towing a 2553, got around 10.5-11.5 MPG (If you now the terrain between Pittsburgh and this ridge of mountains, you know what my engine went through.)
-At 4.00/gallon , that is another $80 or so….

From a cost perspective, I do not count meals, since I would be eating wherever I am . I also do not factor in the wear/tear on the truck, as opposed to standing still.

So for 4 nights/5 days I spent about $160. In one sense, you can't go anywhere for that long, for that little cost. On the other hand, if you do this several times a month in the summer, this will add up to significant expense.

We usually spend quite a bit of time on the tow vehicle discussion, as we all know, its big decision. They are also usually in shock on the MPG part.

I tell them I know of people with bigger V-8's with 5.4, 5.7, and even higher from other brands who get between 7.5-8.5 MPG depending on their load etc.

While I have no experience with pop-ups, I cant' give them much advice on what to expect if they took their standard mini-van/Family Truckster and towed a pop up…..

I also tell them I hope someday, I can camp with twice the MPG's, through lighter weight trailers, and/or lower profile trailers (think Hi-lo), and/or advanced engine design.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to get some feedback on the "advice" I push out to potential new hobbyists.
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Old 06-17-2008, 12:19 PM   #2
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You've hit most of the major issues, but don't discount the food costs......staying in a Motel having to eat three meals a day out, vs. preparing your some of your own meals in the RV, there can be a significant savings, especially in resort areas. We spent almost as much on food during a seven day value resort stay at Disney World as we did for the accomodations and tickets
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:24 PM   #3
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Mark,

You've captured most of the questions.

The first question I would ask is "Why".
For example: Why do you want to start RV'g / Camping, etc.

The answer to that question can provide a lot of insight to what the person is thinking and direct the discussion to their specific concerns.

The biggest positive we've gotten out of camping, is the quality family time.

Hutch
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Old 06-17-2008, 05:25 PM   #4
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Costs

We're on a 4000 mile 2 month trip to Labrador, about 3/4's done. I projected it out at $100 a day for everything and we are on target.

Our biggests costs are gas, over $1500 at $5 a gallon for towing and non-tow miles which are about equal, RV Sites averaging $20, 4 ferry rides totalling 23 hours at $600. Our Honda CRV tow vehicle has worked well and gets great mileage.

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Old 06-17-2008, 06:27 PM   #5
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I guess I forgot one thing (because I hate to see people desperately getting out from under debt, in a bad economy).

When I bought my first trailer--- way back in 2001 , gas was about $1.25. Now at $4.05, the whole picture has changed.

I have mentioned that to some that if you are on the fringe of "affording" this hobby, you must think about these costs over at least 5 years or more. The last thing you want to do is sell everything at $5.00/gallon one year later.

And while I mentioned Hi-Lo or Trailmanor, both of those brands are very costly (new), and that premium would buy a lot of gas.
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Old 06-17-2008, 08:35 PM   #6
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Mark:

I have the 5.3 V8 pulling a 2553 - same as you. If people like to travel, I don't think you can beat our hobby. I only get 12.5 mpg around town and 16 mpg solo on the highway with a good tail wind. So, I don't consider 11 mpg pulling the TT to be that much of a difference. Our family has camped since I was 12 years old (44 years) and I wouldn't have gone to half the places if we had been staying in hotels or rented houses at the beach.

I have two trips planned with family and friends this summer which will require us to stay in hotels (@ $145/night) and a bed & breakfast (@ $125/night). It would be less expensive to take the TT even with the lower gas mileage. Plus, I like sleeping in my own bed and not thinking about who might have slept in the bed the night before.

Even when you factor in the purchase price of the Sunline, it's still a good deal considering how many years you should get out of it. My friend is getting sick of his time-share after 5 years at the same place for one measley week per year. I think we get a lot more bang for our buck.
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:17 PM   #7
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I would ask the same question as Hutch and base my response off of their response,We camp because we enjoy it,even if gas was to hit $10.00 a gallon we would still go camping,if I could not afford our sunline well then we would have a pop up again,or if I could not afford a truck to pull my Sunline then we would go back to a pop up,point being is we love to camp and we would do whatever it takes to keep camping,luckily for us my paycheck pays the bills and my wifes paycheck is our enjoyment and savings money
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Old 06-18-2008, 12:16 AM   #8
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I agree with everyone else so far that it all depends on what you want to get out of it.

Cindy and I have figured everything from the cost of the camper to the fuel cost and we figure it is about $80 per day for the first year. Once the camper is paid off and the cost of the camper becomes eaten up in the daily fees, this per day cost will go down.

Now think if we were trying to travel for two years non-stop and spend every night in a Hotel The food costs alone would cripple us within the first few months.

Dont forget you still have the fuel cost no way around it. Even if you're flying, you're still paying fuel costs one way or another. Driving just your vehicle and not towing might save you some fuel, but in the long run it wont save you any money.

One person asked us how we afford to live like this and I said "My house gets 10mpg. That's not bad considering what your stick house would get per gallon."

Having our own bedding, our own toilet and our own food is so much worth any cost you could hold over our heads. Then being able to pull over anywhere we want and have that be for free just adds to the luxury of the RV lifestyle.

We've stayed in many places for free that would have cost us hundreds of dollars per night if we would have had to stay in a hotel. Granted we might only be staying in a parking lot, but all were doing is sleeping in the camper on those nights. Not all nights are spent in a parking lot.

Now compare the weeks we've spent in breath takingly beautiful, secluded spots, in the middle of no where. And add those prices up to what it would have cost in camping gear, yet we had everything you would want at our beck and call, and the price is unimaginable.

I cant imagine traveling any other way, yet we meet people who ask us "How do you do it?" every single day. So I guess if you have to explain it, then they just dont get it.
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Old 06-18-2008, 12:51 PM   #9
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Interesting thread. Everyone’s seen the bumper sticker on the back of Jeeps: “It’s a Jeep thing, you wouldn’t understand.” There’s a lot of truth in that. What one person gets enthusiastic over another will scratch his head wondering what all the fuss is about. This is true of RVing. I’ve been asked on occasion if RVing is “worth it.” That is, does it pay to travel in an RV compared to traveling some other way? I have a hard time answering this question because the comparative cost is, in my mind, irrelevant. One doesn’t (or shouldn’t) get into RVing to save money even assuming its possible. Applying cost/benefit thinking to the RV hobby makes no more sense (to me anyway) than applying it to any other hobby. You don’t take up boating because its financially advantageous, or get serious about cycling because it’s cheaper than driving a car. You do these things because they’re fun and you’re willing to spend some money to have fun.

Of course, this doesn’t mean that you can’t introduce yourself to the hobby through financial prudence. After all, how many of us started out camping rather than staying in hotels because our checkbooks wouldn’t let us do anything else? As many of us have done, we’ve gone from tent to pop-up to trailer over time as our enthusiasm for RVing grows. But this isn’t the same as asking if you should get into RVing as a rational cost-saving measure.

There’s no better illustration of the not-strictly-rational (but not irrational) nature of the RV hobby than the popularity of Airstream trailers. Who in their right mind would buy a horribly overpriced RV whose build quality, towability, and layout can be matched or exceeded elsewhere for a lot less money? The correct answer is, ”Who cares?” RVing is a lifestyle choice and no one is strictly objective about their lifestyle. Paying for an Airstream means you get the Airstream lifestyle which is more than just the trailer: a quintessentially American institution, colorful history, unique construction, and the whole Wally Byam caravan thing. If you don’t get it, then you might as well own a Fleetwood. But if you do get it (and lots do), then the huge amount of money you paid for your Airstream is well worth it. Those of us on this forum made the same choice although not in such a spectacular manner (Sunlines are extremely cool but they’re not Airstreams).

On the surface, RVing is a goofy pastime. The picture of RVing painted by the movie “RV” is really not all that far off (Who hasn’t stayed at a broken down RV park in the middle of some desolate wilderness at one time or another?). But reach below the surface and you see families having fun together, meeting friends at beautiful locations, and learning a lot more about this country than you can any other way. Some folks get it, others don’t, and that’s okay.
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Old 06-19-2008, 10:48 PM   #10
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My neighbor has spent every weekend since April working on his lawn. He is so obsesive about mowing that he often mows both Saturday and Sunday. He has a great looking lawn and his landscaping is just fantastic. But as for me I would rather go campimg on my weekends even if its just up on the Skyline Drive.

When you look at cost its really based on how much you have to spend. You can have a great time in a State or National park camping in a small rig you picked up used or you can stay in an expensive motor home in a $100 dollar a night RV resort. Barbara and I spent 3 weeks touring the west in a 1987 Honda Civic and sleeping in a 2 man Timberline tent in National Parks. I think it may have been the best vaction we every did.

If you think you may like camping but are not sure rent a class C for a weekend and see if you like. Or even borrow a tent from a nieghbor and a pickup a couple of cots from a surplus.
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:04 PM   #11
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What a great topic at this time of high gas prices and food costs going up. DW and I went to Disney World this May. WE liked to say it was our dream trip. We have camped for a long time and have been to Disney World 7 times now 3 times in a popup. This was the first time in our 2004 2499. Everything and I mean everything went great. Yes our TV a F150 King Ranch 5.4 3.73 was getting 8.5/9.5 but I wasn't worried./ You can not go anywhere free. AS others have said at least you know who slept in that bed last night. You can stop anywhere and eat your food that you bought at a good price. We ate out only 1 time at a place in Disney that our daughter recommended and while it was okay it wasn't anything we couldn't have done ourselves.

When we are not camping away our TT is 50' from our back door and we use it every weekend. It is plugged into 30amp. and water we can have a camp fire if we like. There is no phone and no computer. this weekend we are putting in a patio pad for our patio set. and a small bar b q stand will follow. Our grandchildren take turns coming and have a great time.

I agree you have to enjoy being together and just letting the world slow down a bit. I have a brother who has a popup and his wife has cancer. They have 3 boys in their early teens. She is going on radiation and one of the boys needs to be out of the house. Dad is going to take them away to camp for a bit and I think, since he is a long haul trucker this will be a great time for them to get to know each other a bit better.

Yes it is not for everyone and yes it can be expensive but as stated earlier what a great way to see the country and meet some many great people, some of which are right in this forum
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:05 PM   #12
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Retired Campers

We're basically people who camp 7-8 month a year, retired campers on a fixed income, retired for some 8 years. Our perspective is that of almost fulltimers, not weekend campers.

In general the 8 months we're out and about are less expenive (and healthier) than living at home. There is a peace, togetherness and relaxation on the road; as well wonder in all the place dicovered and enjoyed.

Camping fees for the year are less than the taxe on my small house, propane cost less than my natural gas, and water is usually free on the road and of course we use less electricity. In an eight month trip around the USA we might cover 8000 miles towing and another 8000 mile exploring. Towing and exploring with our Honda amounts to less than 800 gallons of gas, spread over 7 or 8 months this amounts to 100 gallons or about $400 a month.

Even using our motor home it amounts to 1400 gallons, spread over 7 or 8 months this amounts to 175 gallons a month or $700 a month for gas.

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Old 07-05-2008, 08:57 PM   #13
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Mark

You have a very good thread here and I have not made to posting to it until tonight.

Each of us are at different stages in life/family and our RV’ing/camping brings different things to each of us. The one common theme in all of this is the great outdoors, camping life and what each of us take away from it.

Cindy and I started with the tent scene but from different backgrounds. She was big into Girl Scouting during high school and lived at camp all summer. And when we 1st where married she was even a Troop leader before we had kids. Time went by, kids came along and I ended up going big time into the Boy Scouting program. By this time Cindy was glad to just let me go camping with the son and she would have a break at home….. We both had an appreciation for camping, nature and being out doors. While Cindy loved camping, she was just not into the tent scene later in life.

A number of years ago, my son brought home a 30 year old Star Craft PU from his fiancé’s parents where he was going to fix just a soft spot on the floor. Well to make a long story short, the rot went thru most everything and we ended up rebuilding the entire PU. When finished we had the PU set up in the back yard and DW comes out steps inside and says wow, I can go camping in this… That was my chance… We went camping in a 30 year old PU, totally rebuilt and clean with no electric, water or even fridge. We where empty nesters at this time and had the best time we had in 20 years…..

Soon we owned our owned new Coleman Mesa PU and turned into camping animals, as the kids called us. This was the start of our official RV’ing life style. The PU towed very easy behind my Chevy Tahoe or my Sons’ S15 Jimmy. While there are still towing concerns the PU has far less then a TT.

Life goes on and we are now on our 2nd TT. The camper is bigger as well as the truck. We have many Parks some only 20 to 40 miles from home, some hundreds and we go all year round. We do slow down in the winter but only due to bad towing weather or rain. For Cindy and I it is a true escape for different reasons. We have made some really nice new friends thru this RV’ing life style that we would never have had before. I enjoy all aspects of camping, setting up camp, tinkering with the camper, etc. Cindy enjoys being outside and just chilling reading her book. Looking back now, I wish we would of found this style of life when the kids where younger and still lived with us, but we cannot turn back the clock so now we take the grand kids some times.

Reflecting back on this, if TT’s became extinct for some odd reason, A PU has a lot to offer. I do not think I can convince the DW to go back to a tent….The good times and enjoyment we had in the beginning is very close to the same we have now. Just we have settled into a more convenient way of being in the outdoors.

To your point on explaining this to some one new and do they want to get into the life style we have, I will tell them the same story. I wish we would of done it sooner. For a family or couple starting out on this venture there are options.

Go the tenting route. Make sure you actually like the outdoors, can deal with some times being wet and having a level of bugs be around you at times. Hopefully your 1st outing you have good weather, this helps. The family togetherness of being in a campground and being outdoors will still happen in a tent. Some of my best camping memories are in a tent in the far outreaches of Quetico Provincial Park in Canada miles from civilization.

The next step and or jump to if you do not want the tent scene is to rent a PU for the weekend. Do a few weekends. Make sure this is what you want to do and deal with.

If you like the PU route there are many low cost options. Again a used PU does not cost that much and it does not take large TV. If you want to enter the TT range of camping, again start out with a good used camper. Find a fellow RV’er who has been around and thru a few TV’s to make sure you do not buy a TT to big for your TV. It may take some time but you can find a good used TT at relative low cost. When the TT comes then TV’s become more a part of the equation pending TT, where you are going and how big it is.

Now enter the $4.00/gallon and higher TV fuel/higher food costs etc. Yes this stops and makes you think. Where Cindy and I are in our life it will not stop us from camping. It may alter long trips (500 plus miles) to a few per year, but again we are blessed with great CG’s, 20 miles from home. If costs double totally again in the next few years we may slow down a bit but we will not stop. Life is full of choices. We can choose to not do other things to allow us to go camping.

The value of the good times we have had and still will have, are truly priceless. As far as the dollars are concerned only take on what you can afford and this is different for everyone. You can still get that priceless feeling car camping with a tent from Wally World.

Hopefully this will help your friends questions on your's and our hobby.

John
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Old 07-06-2008, 09:00 AM   #14
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In my town there are several options for 'trying out RVing' -- from families renting out their campers when not using them to small mom/pop business who rent TTs and PUs, to the big superstores which rent driveable motorhomes. Over the last 20 years, I've used all of them at some point--and for one big camping trip every year, a local dog show circuit at a state park, three or four friends and I pool our cash and rent an RV. Sometimes it's been a 33' motor home, other times a simpler 23' Class C; for the last 8 years, we've been renting from a wonderful family business who delivers a 26-28 ft. TT to our site in the state park where the dog show is held. If I had a dollar for every RV show we've all been to, for every conversation about buying a TT in common, for every time I looked into buying my own RV, I'd be a very rich girl.

I always talked myself (and the rest of us) out of buying, and camped the rest of the year in tents.

I have camped since I was a counselor at a kids sleep-away all-summer camp in the Adirondacks when I was 18--I liked being outdoors and enjoyed hiking before this, but found that I also loved camping and the camping lifestyle. I lived in a platform tent and used an outdoor shower house all summer long, and took two or three overnight hikes or horse packing trips every week for all 12 weeks of that summer. I came away from that experience loving camping, and progressed from a teeny tiny pup tent to a Eureka A-Frame to a Eureka 2-3 person dome, to a 5-6 person dome tent when I started taking my nephews with me (they were 3 and 6 on their first trip.) I was a broke student, or a broke copywriter for most of that time--and some of my tents were 'previously loved' before I bought them. But I could take myself and my nephews to one of the state parks or state forests within 100 miles, and stay two or three nights, and usually do the whole thing for under $150.

But at some point in my early 40s, we switched to destination aunt-nephew vacations--Hilton Head, NYC, the upper penninsula of Michigan (where we camped, but in a cabin.) And then I got sick--first a stroke, then cancer--and knew that tent camping was no longer a possibility. I started going back through all those RV brochures, looking at small pop-ups and the A-Lite Aliner camper and other small trailers. But I didn't really want to have to deal with the air-out-wet-canvas pop up issues (limited area to keep the camper at my condo), so focused more on trailers with solid sides. I have a Chevy S10, 4 cyl, which can tow 2000 lbs without anything extra, and knew if I could keep to half of that tow rating, I'd be just fine. Then I discovered teardrop campers, and tiny travel trailers, and knew that I could find a way to get back outdoors, back camping, at a reasonable cost and reasonable tow expenses.

I wasn't planning on stumbling onto a Sunline Sunspot--I was actually looking hard at used and stripped down Yoder Toter tears and Little Guy tears, and at the Aliner A-400. I just lucked into the Sunspot, on ebay but at a mom/pop RV store about an hour from home. It was in reasonably good shape for a 30 y.o. TT., and I bought it on the spot.

Like a teardrop, the compact Sunspot is all I really need--my own bed, a dry place to sit at a table if it's raining buckets, and a galley to store food and cook equipment. I usually camp in state parks/forests which have some level of water/restroom facilities, so I don't need to haul those with me or maintain them in my camper. I'm working on a solar setup to charge the Sunspot's 12v system, so that I don't need an electrical hookup if none is available.

Because the Sunspot only weighs about 600 lbs. dry, and 750 lbs. loaded, I don't need a gas guzzling TV to pull it. If I decide to trade in the S10 for something else, I can go even smaller and higher mileage--but right now, the 7 y.o, paid off S10 gets around 28 mpg city--and I lose all of one or two mpg towing.

I still love looking at the huge, tricked out MHs on tv and at every dog show (you want to see a free RV show--go visit the camping area at any dog show!) And while it's great to live how the other half lives for one circuit a year, I am perfectly happy camping (when I can) in my much smaller tiny TT, which fits all of my needs for getting away from it all.

Interestingly, a couple of the 'RV's for 2009' shows that have come out have also spotlighted smaller RVs...not as entry level campers, but as economical campers. Some of them are under 2000lbs. dry, which puts them in the range of a 6 cyl small truck with a tow package--and an mpg that helps the TV make sense for the average family's main vehicle.

I think the other component question is 'how much home do you want to take with you on the road?' For me, I want to take my dogs, my kitchen, a warm, dry bed and something to provide power charges to a small radio, my ipod, my cell phone--everything else (peace, quiet, great scenery, good friends if I'm not looking for solitude) I can get at my destination.
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