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Old 06-25-2008, 10:22 AM   #1
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HELP- Need advice/ opinions!!!

OK, so I put this here in community because it sort of crosses over a couple of forums!

I am having a serious moral delemmia!!!

We are deciding between coaches. We are currently towing with a Dodge 1500 Hemi, rated at 8500 pounds. This truck was a gift, it is paid for and upgrading any time in the near future is not on option, as we would offend the givers. A mid to long tern upgrade is possible (maybe in 5 years or so). We have wheeled and dealed the following coaches:

So, Coach A is a SMOKIN' deal!!!! It has everything we are looking for (and more). It is a floor plan and vintage that we could theoretically be using this coach untill we are too old (or dead!) to RV. It is located close by, here in town. Did I mention it is a SMOKIN deal? Here is the issue: The trailer weigs 6,000 pounds dry, 8,600 gross. We know we can tow it within the limits- there are folks here and on other forums running simular setups. We know it will be slow going in the mountians. What we are concerned about it wear on the truck. (Granted, it has the lifetime powertrain warranty; Dodge can replace the tranny every so often .) The deal on this is awesome, we will probably never see the likes of this again (it pays to know people ) Half my brain tells me this is the smart decision. This is the coach and deal we want, but is it safe/ feasable?

Coach B is another option. The floorplan has everything we currently "need", by the skin of it's teeth. It weighs in at 4,850 pounds, 7,000 Gross. We know we can tow it eaisly. It is five years old, looks to be in great shape, but it is located 13 hours away (which adds to the cost considerably). Also, they guy wants more then the newer Coach A. In all honesty, we would probably outgrow the traler in a few years; there is very little floor space (and where would we find a Sunny at that point?). It would definately be a mid-term investment (for more $). BUT, we can tow it!!!!

There is also Coach C. Same floor plan and weights as Coach B, so we have the space and longevity issues. In addition, this coach is 10 years old, but looks to be in great shape. (of course, I don't get my china tiolet and shub shower, which I know can be added) It located within reason. We are pretty sure this coach sat at a seasonal site (no biggie or is it?). Although he is asking blue book, we think the price is high, as we can get the almost new Coach A for only 1k more, but it is cheaper then Coach B. The other half of my brain says this is the smart decision, but I am worried about the age and having to replace systems, appliances. BUT again, we can tow it!!!!


The last option is buying something other then a Sunny, but we feel that is a comprimise. We strongly believe it is a short- mid term investment- How often do you see OLD trailers on the highway? Think about what brands they are. Mostly Sunnys.

So, I know y'all can't make the decision for us. But what is your opinion? We really want Coach A, but we are afraid we are about to make a big mistake because of the truck. Can we tow it for 5 years or so? Coach B is just sooooo far away, and I feel like we would be settling for something less (at more $). Coach C is also a settlement, only more so.

HELP!!!!!!
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:07 AM   #2
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Hi Kathryn,

It sounds like Coach A is the way to go, at least in my opinion.

With out specifics, it looks like the trailer will be within the weight limits of your truck.
Check the tongue weight of the trailer to make sure it’s not going to exceed the truck’s GVWR or it’s rear axle weight rating.

The most important thing, from a safety perspective, is that the tow vehicle and trailer fall within all the weight ratings (GCWR, GVWR, Tow Rating, Rear Axle GWR, etc.)
If Coach A falls within all the weight limits of your tow vehicle, I would definitely go with Coach A.

Just my $0.02. Good luck.
Hutch
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:40 AM   #3
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While the gross weight of A is right at your limit, the dry weight is safely below it. I'd buy A and not load alot of "stuff" in it. When you let us know what you decide you'll have to give us the model numbers
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:49 AM   #4
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Our 2 cents is to recommend a trailer with bunk beds for a growing family. The top bunk gives you tons of room for storage while having the baby in the bottom bunk. Our daughter took up a whole king-size bed in our pop-up with all her toys and such. The bunks are big enough to still use one end for storage and the rest for sleeping. Don't know what you are looking at but anything has to give you more space than your Que.

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Old 06-25-2008, 12:03 PM   #5
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If the warranty on the truck is part of you dilemna, there may be another answer. You received it as a gift so, either you're the original owner or not. My understanding of the Dodge warranty is that it is only lifetime to the original owner. So if you're the original registered owner then, yes, you do have a lifetime warranty. If you received it from the original registered owner then, no, you don't have a lifetime warranty.

Presuming that you do have the warranty, you had better check to see if that warrany includes trailer towing. Towing an 8500 GWR trailer would be a convenient excuse for the manufacturer to deny a warranty claim.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:08 PM   #6
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I think I know what "Coach A" is ('cause I know the reaction when they toured a certain similar model at the meet-n-greet ) and the weights are right

They already know my opinion on the tow vehicle, if a short bed, standard cab 1500 pulled it, with the only problem being the 318 running out of guts on the hills, the Hemi powered, extended cab will handle it.

We bought ours knowing we had to upgrade, more because the 2 person cab with 4 people, than the motor. We just happened to come across a used 2500 diesel, for about what a decent 1500 hemi would have run us.

GO for it we know "Coach A" is really what you want/need
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Old 06-25-2008, 02:58 PM   #7
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Tough Choices

I'll declare my bias right up front. I traded in a perfectly good 01 1500 for a classic body 07 1500HD rather than a new body 07 because I liked the old truck so much I wanted to get the same one again. So why trade? The 1500 was overloaded and my nature, and long distance travels, just couldn't tolerate that.

From what I've read here, you'll find two groups of people online. One that puts the emphasis on power and whether a truck will be able to move a given trailer and one that puts the emphasis on load capacity and staying well clear of the limits.

I don't know the axle ratio, but expect your Hemi will have no difficulty moving that trailer, and given you'll take a beating trading in today's market, you could easily change the rear end for even more power and be money ahead. If the hitch isn't up to carrying the tongue weight of the new coach that is also an inexpensive upgrade.

Load capacity is a different matter. Based on my experience--two people, never carry water--your road ready coach could weigh close to 7000 lb. However, the Hemi's 8500 lb. tow capacity, if you read the fine print, actually includes all the cargo and passengers in the TV. So, you now have a fully loaded coach. Add a couple of hundred lb. in the bed and a couple hundred lb. of people and you're getting another 800 lb.. close, but still under the factory's max. tow rating. All of this assumes you pack lightly. You can carry all the marshmallows you want, but beer, firewood and water add up and will put you over the tow capacity. So now you have 800 lb. in your TV. It still has to carry the coach's tongue weight. How much room have you got left in the GVWR? TW could put you over. Also a lot of weight is on the rear axle. GM suggests adding up your TV cargo and passengers plus 1.4 or 1.5x the TW to estimate what the truck will be carrying. You can shift some TW with the weight distributing hitch, but a lot of it will still go on the rear axle. In fact I would go conservative, ignore WD and put all the TW on the rear axle. Do you have enough room on the RGAWR to carry all that on the rear axle?

I have a feeling you've already done all this and that's what's created your dilemma. My new trailer put my old truck over the limit. I had all the weights so it was really easy to buy a new truck for the trailer. But wishful thinking made me believe, momentarily at least, that my old truck might just get by. As a result I've formulated Henry's 1st Law of Rv'ing: Everything weighs more than you think it does.

I don't believe engineers set weight limits by throwing darts. Performance degrades as you approach weight limits and something will break, or wear out, sooner or later if you exceed them. If you can at least stay under on the weight limits I'd certainly choose A, stay close to home off freeways, and regularly service the tranny and rear end with a high quality lube like a synthetic.

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Old 06-26-2008, 09:16 AM   #8
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My opinion: We see what you want but with today's cost of RVing the question could be what do you really need which could make the decision. As an example, we really wanted the T-2363 but with the two of us we only needed the T-1950. Less purchase price, small and easier to set up, lighter, less stress on the vehicle and less cost towing it. We're happy with our choice.
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwb01
My opinion: We see what you want but with today's cost of RVing the question could be what do you really need which could make the decision. As an example, we really wanted the T-2363 but with the two of us we only needed the T-1950. Less purchase price, small and easier to set up, lighter, less stress on the vehicle and less cost towing it. We're happy with our choice.
I agree, there's a lot to be said for that approach!
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Old 06-26-2008, 01:35 PM   #10
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Is there any possible way for you to get a "TEST TOW" of coach "A" ? Since you state it is near by, if they would allow you to do that you might be able to make a better decision. Load light, travel with empty tanks when ever possible. I persoanlly would try to get a trailer that would serve my needs for the future. Since you have a new little one, and maybe the possability of one or more in the future, if you could do coach A you would avoid having to upgrade in the future, as we all know Sunlines are built to last. Keep us informed of you decision.

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Old 06-26-2008, 02:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanyonkitty
Load light, travel with empty tanks when ever possible.
Kathryn & Andrew,

As Kitty indicated, if you always tow dry (i.e., no water in Black, Gray, Fresh, & HW Tanks) and pack lightly in both TT and TV, you can save a lot of weight and it may keep the towing weight of coach A around 7,000 lbs which will put less strain on the TV when towing and probably keep the total weights within the TV's weight limits.

A test tow is a good idea. If you do a test tow, find some good hills to test tow it on to see how the TV handles coach A in that situcation.
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Old 06-27-2008, 12:14 PM   #12
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Kathryn, remember at the M&G when you asked me my $.02 on the towing capabilities of your truck. And we discussed the opinions on towing weights, and the 80% factor. We also discussed me towing the 5'er with the 3/4 ton. Go for coach A!!! It's exactly what you want. Go for it. You only live once.
I've been told by several RV dealers that the average weight of personal "stuff" and gear is around 700 lbs. So with a dry weight of 6k plus 700 lbs of "stuff", and 70 lbs of LP gas you have a total of 6,770 lbs. Add another 300 lbs of "stuff" and you just breached the 7k mark. Thats childs play for your truck with a 8,500 lb tow rating. That still leaves you really close to the magic 80% mark . Oh, and tell Drew I said hi.

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Old 06-27-2008, 11:20 PM   #13
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Hi Kathryn

Hopefully this will help you some in your decisions. You do have a delimia. We where in a similar one when we bought our first new TT. What I can present are some things to think about that you have not yet told us or maybe you have not thought of yet. What we know is you have a ½ ton Dodge Ram tow rated at 8,500# and you are ideally wanting Option A that fits your long term needs and it is a 8,600# GVWR TT.

We really do not know enough about your camping habits, the truck ratings or the TT year/model you are looking at to actually help determine if the TV and TT match up well to your camping needs. I can say this, an 8,600# GVWR TT generally has a slide associated with it and that size TT is a higher profile TT. That size TT has certain towing attributes associated with it that says caution when connecting it to a ½ ton tow vehicle as a long term situation.

To help you figure this out for yourself so you can see how good or areas of concern are, we can help you do a towing health check and see where you land. Then you can go into this eyes wide open and make your final decision.

Ideally, load up the truck with the kids, DH, full tank of gas and the must haves in the truck and go to a Truck scale. Only put the must haves in the truck as weight will be a thing you have to keep track of. Weigh the front axle and rear axle. Pilot, Flying J, Travel America all have 3 stage scales and this cost about $8 bucks to weigh a truck. With these 2 weights you are now armed with facts about your TV for any size TT you connect to it.

The next is a look at the numbers. You can do this yourself or post the numbers back here and we can help do it with you.

Look on the driver side door for a tag that has the following numbers

Rear axle rating: GAWR-RR
Front axle rating: GAWR-FRT
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating: GVWR.

And need to find your GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) on the truck. This is the real pull rating limit for the engine, transmission and rear axle ratio. I tried to find it in a Dodge on line manual and I could not find it quickly. Look in yours for this.

The actual Tow Rating of a TV is derived from a stripped down truck, generally a full tank of gas and a 150# driver. Any options added to the truck, people inside or cargo derate from what is left for pulling. The accurate way to do this is to subtract the weight of the loaded ready to go camping truck from the GCWR and what is left is for pulling a trailer and some safety factor. It is not uncommon to have 300# of TV options and 600 pounds of people and cargo. Crew or extended cabs also add weight. This takes the 8,500# tow rating down to 7600#. This however is only part of the tug of war.

TT towing is different then towing a cargo trailer or a boat. Pulling 5,000# of a 6 x 12 cargo trailer or a 5000# of boat pulls a whole lot easier then 5,000# of TT that is 8 feet wide 10 ½ feet tall. The frontal area of a TT eats into towing performance. Ford is one of the big 3 TV makers that actually states in there Trailering guide that above 60 sq feet of frontal area will affect performance of the truck. They never declare what the loss is but they at least warn it is a factor. For this frontal area factor you need a level of pulling capacity in reserve. The 8600# TT with full slide is higher then the non slide lower profile TT and I can attest to that an extra 6 to 8 inches affects towing performance.

You said 5 years before you upgrade. This is a considerable time period. That beautiful family of yours will grow more in that time and the amount of “stuff” increases along with it. This adds more weight. The average camper adds 1,000# of stuff in a TT. Both Cindy and I added 1,200#. A family adds even more then the average camper. Your may be 900# or 1300#

Next is the stability of the TV suspension and the length of a TT. The truck has to hold up the heavier tongues of a slide model camper that comes with that 8,600# rating. This then becomes axle capacities and the ability of the TV suspension to hold the truck stable when towing the TT. I can go into this more once I know the actual TT you are looking at.

Next is where are you going camping? And how often? If you are camping 25 miles from home this will have a different longevity effects on the TV then camping 100’s of miles from home. And how often you go camping. With out doing a whole lot of math, I know you will be close to or at/over the limits of your truck with a 8,600# GVWR TT even if you only load it to 7,000# on a ½ ton truck. I may be more conservative then most and everyone has a different camping situation of what works for them.

First is doing some home work on the weight ratings of the truck axles, compare to TV GVWR and compare to the GCWR. Then you add the TT tongue to the equation and make sure it does not over do the TV rear axle. Then you add the needs of safety factor for frontal area and some reserve for growth/hills.

When you see how close to the limits you are, or not, you can make a better decision on how long the truck will last based upon how many times you go camping.

For Cindy and I, we camp about every 2 weeks all year round and put on about 5 to 8,000 towing miles a year. (at least b4 the gas crunch). With this level of camping the TV needs to be up to that task. If you camp 8 times a year, that is different service duty on a TV. From my towing experience, I personally would not marry up a 8,600# GVWR TT to anything less then a ¾ ton truck for a long term situation. And for me, 5 years is a long time.

I am not trying to talk you put of Option A however sooner or later you will not be happy with your TV. When we bought our 1st camper, later we found the TT was overloading the rear truck axle once we loaded it the way “we” go camping. A T2499 on a 1500 Tahoe, We loved the camper too much and soon the TV had to go…. Thus our 2500 Suburban was born.

When we bought our 2nd camper, T310SR, I was well under the truck axle ratings and tow ratings on that 7,300# empty TT on the way home from the dealer. I knew I needed to upgrade once I fully loaded the TT but I needed to get it home. However I accidently put it in the wrong series of hills in PA about 50 miles south of Button wood that ate my 6.0 liter with 4.10 rear end 2500 Suburban for lunch. (16,000GCWR) On the flat lands of Ohio, it did sort of OK but I could tell it was on the edge and I could only load the TT ½ way. Towing at your TV’s limits is a short term situation. Once I upgraded to the proper size TV for that TT, life became good once again.

Run the numbers and this will help you decide what to do. We can help with the numbers ordeal if you need.

Hope this helps and good luck. I know, decisions, decisions. This is not an easy decision.

John
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Old 06-28-2008, 10:59 PM   #14
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Yeah, I didn't add any specific floorpans because I did not want to bias anyone's opinion.
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Old 06-30-2008, 04:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinybluetj
Yeah, I didn't add any specific floorpans because I did not want to bias anyone's opinion.
Kathryn

If you give us some specs to work with, we can assit to see how a towing health check between the TT and the TV comes out.

For the TV:

Truck model/make
Engine size, 5.7 this we know
Rear axle ratio
Wheel base. Or tell us crew cab/ext cab or none we will dig it up.
Gross combined weight rating (GCWR) if you can find it.

From the drivers side door:
Rear alxe rating
Front axle rating
GVWR

Tire size and load range.

How many pounds of people and cargo estimated must haves will be in the TV?

On the camper, just need year and model. We have all the catalogs here on line.

I will be glad to run the numbers for you. We know these decisions are hard.

Hope this helps

John
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:23 PM   #16
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Kathryn

Tough decisio! Would it be possible to beef the truck up slightly to handel the extra weight? Heavier rear springs and a different rear end.I did this with my 96 Ford F-150 6 cylinder and turned it into a great tow vehicle. I wasn't worried about an extended warranty because I bought the truck "As Is" . Look at these Woodchucks they build these pickups up all the time to carry huge loads of firewood.

Good Luck

Rich and Barb
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Old 07-03-2008, 11:24 PM   #17
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Kathryn

Do not know if this will help in your decision but may give you more options if you are after a T276SR

I saw this one at Alpin Haus RV in Amsterdam NY this Tuesday. It is a 2006 and the outside looked in good shape. You may have a better deal where you where looking or not but it is an option.

It will not link directly but look on their site for used and Sunline. It will come up

http://alpinhaus.rtrk.com/


Hope this helps your search

John
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