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Old 07-18-2008, 11:14 AM   #1
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Deb B
2363 with possible frame trouble

I have been following the frame troubles on the 2499 and checked our 2006 2363 (built I believe Aug. 2005). It has a slight bow out instead of the bow inward. It looks like Kitty's but not as far along. When looking at the header the bow is about 2 in. to the left of the round battery disconnect. If this is the same type of problem, I think we are catching it in the beginning stages. We have spoken to a guy who we trust with our classic cars and I am sending him the link to the 2499 post. I feel confident that he can fix this situation before it becomes a major problem. Looks like everyone needs to check their frames no matter what model you have. I'm so thankful for this site and the wonderful people here. We probably would not have noticed this problem until it became much worse. I truely hope everyone can remedy this problem soon and get back to having fun!

Deb
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Old 07-18-2008, 11:43 AM   #2
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Deb

Trying to learn the common elements of the problem to compare to the T2499 so we can be sure we understand the problem. Which right now tongue weight, WD, gear in rear of the TV seems to be the common elements.

Do you have any pictures of the header bend?

Do you know your loaded tongue weight?

What size WD bars do you have?

Your frame shop, if they do come up with a repair can you pass it along?

Best of luck and let us know what we can do to help.

John
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Old 07-18-2008, 12:16 PM   #3
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Deb and John B,
You're going to need to measure your A frame and tongue. The 2003 2363 we saw on a dealer lot the A frame was LESS than 4" (I didn't have the tape along but it looked like 3"), and the main frame looked like a 3" C channel. So, you could have a completely different situation here.
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Old 07-18-2008, 12:42 PM   #4
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I have not taken any pictures yet but will do so as soon as I can get back to the storage lot. I just ran by there yesterday out of curiosity and did not have my camera and tape measure.
Tweety, I don't know about the width of A frame and header, I will check that.
John, we do seem to load the Tahoe in the rear with tools and such if that is what you mean. We have a Blue Ox, the numbers on the bars are ST 102 and BXW 1000 and Pro 1000. That's all I know about them. The dealer did not give us any of the papers that came with them.
Unfortunately we have never weighed our coach and do not know the tongue weight. I wish I could be more helpful with this. Will try to post pictures when I get some although I have never tried to post before.

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Old 07-18-2008, 01:18 PM   #5
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Oops, sorry...I meant to say to measure the A frame and main frame. Also look to see if the main frame is an I beam or a C channel.
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Old 07-18-2008, 01:52 PM   #6
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Hi Tweety,
You said it right the first time, it was me who got it wrong. I will look at all this and measure when I go back. I hate that our "baby" has to sit on a storage lot but unavoidable. It could be Sunday before I can get back there. Will also have my DH with me then.

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Old 07-18-2008, 05:54 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb B
BXW1000
Since I see these numbers daily, this is a Blue Ox Sway Pro with 1000 # WD bars. The kit part number is BXW1000.

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Old 07-18-2008, 06:54 PM   #8
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Thanks Jon. I hope that is sufficient for our 2363. I haven't been able to look at the frame again and get any measurements, do you know if the 2006 2363 had a larger frame than the 2003 tweety saw?

Thanks,
Deb
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Old 07-18-2008, 09:40 PM   #9
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Deb,

IMO, 1000 # bars are a little overkill for that coach. In fact, it probably is the reason behind your frame damage. If the problem is caused by what they say now, where the WD bars put too much force on the tongue when going over bumps or backing up steep grades, the stiff bars put especially more pressure than designed on the tongue.

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Old 07-18-2008, 10:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunline Fan
Deb,

IMO, 1000 # bars are a little overkill for that coach. In fact, it probably is the reason behind your frame damage. If the problem is caused by what they say now, where the WD bars put too much force on the tongue when going over bumps or backing up steep grades, the stiff bars put especially more pressure than designed on the tongue.

Jon
Hi Jon

Crunching some numbers this is what I came up with.

Looking up the 2006, it catalog weighs dry at 520# tongue on 4,200# dry weight. So that is 12.4% tongue. The TT has a GVWR of 5,500# and if it ever loaded exactly even that is 682# at 12.4% tongue. They ďnormallyĒ do not load that even.

However if it loaded to the 15% higher end of recommendation that even Sunline preached as good practice that is 5,500# at 15%= 825# which is the gray zone of a 750 or 800# WD bar

And then is there is 200# of gear in the truck aft of the axle, well you are in the 1,000# WD bar range. OR fresh water filled may take you into the 850 Ė 900 area depending where the tank is. Since we really do not know what the loaded tongue weight is, we would not know if 1,000# bars are too heavy. 750 or 800 might be right on or just too light.

Point on all this, 1000# WD bars while possibly heavy, if the tongue is only loaded to 800# and the WD is adjusted right, then they should only put in the needed tension to lift the 800# tongue.

I would hope they would not size this thing so close to the edge given the stack up of weights.

Lets see what Deb comes back with on the frame size and dims and this may help explain some of this.

Jon, do you know if the 5,500 GVWR class TTís also had a frame revision in 2005? We now have a fairly good handle on that the 7,000# GVWR series TT did.

Thanks

John
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Old 07-18-2008, 11:35 PM   #11
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John,

The '07 Filon sided 2363 that's at All American has a frame rated for 6000 #'s. I got a pic of the VIN sticker while I was there. Also, I forgot before, Deb's is filon sided as well, so that would add some weight.

So to answer your question, it appears they upped the GVWR to 6000, unless that's just for the filon sided coaches which are heavier to begin with. BTW, GAWR is still listed as 2750. I'm confused !
I guess I'm glad I didn't buy that one!

In my 2363, the fresh water tank was under the bed in the back. I know they moved a lot of fresh tanks underneath since '94, but with the 2363, there's so little room underneath anyway that I'd assume it's full up with the black and gray tanks. Maybe they squeezed it in over the axles though.

However, haven't you found that even though the 1200 # bars are really required for a 2499, they are turning up with the coaches that have the frame problems? In other words, having enough bar for the job is causing the twisting, right? If there were 550 # bars on a coach, I don't think it would have been as severe. I'm thinking this same thing happened with the 2363- it has too much tongue weight in most cases for the 750's, but the 1000 was too much bar and caused the bend.

Jon
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Old 07-19-2008, 12:14 AM   #12
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Oh my goodness, you guys are making me nervous! This is our first TT. We bought it in March or April of last year so with it being built in Aug. of 05, it was already around 1 1/2 years old although never titled so sold as new. No telling where all it had been before that. I had my heart set on a Sunline. The 2363 is perfect for the two of us and our 4 legged baby. It was also the limit for the Tahoe. Since we knew nothing about TTs the dealership picked the wd and set it up. We have been so happy with everything so far and hope this can be resolved soon. I can hardly wait to get back over and check these things out.

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Old 07-19-2008, 07:31 AM   #13
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We considered buying a 2006 or 2007 2363 that was at Stoltzfus at one point, and the sofa across the front had passthrough storage under it. So, that could be loaded up just like in the 2499.
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Old 07-19-2008, 09:23 AM   #14
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Deb,

As John explained, the WD you have is the correct setup and I wouldn't change a thing. I was just pointing out that when someone with a 2499 has the correct WD, it seems like they have this problem. If you had the BXW0750, you wouldn't have enough bar there most likely for the loaded coach, but it might not put as much strain on the tongue to bend it.

I'm actually surprised that Sagon put that hitch on. Usually, dealers will go with under rated hitches because they cost them less.

Pam, while the 2363 does have the under-couch pass-thru, it does have the bedroom in the back and a lot of weight can be put under and around that bed to counteract the front bay.

Jon
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Old 07-19-2008, 10:48 AM   #15
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Jon,

Thanks for the reassurance. I was worrying that we caused this by using the wrong set up. We are hoping to keep our little coach for a long time. We have a few more years till retirement and hope to keep it in great shape for that time. I knew we would not be getting a NEW Sunline if we didn't go ahead and take this one while we had a chance. We had not thought of the smooth sided ones and didn't think of it being a lot heavier. Now that we have it we are pleased with it. We had a bad hail storm awile back and other campers we dented - not ours. I always worry about things like roof and tires never thought a problem with the frame would come up. We were pleased with Sagon and think alot of our salesman, Peter. I don't know much about working with pictures except to attatch them in an e-mail, but will try when I get over there.

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Old 07-19-2008, 02:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunline Fan

However, haven't you found that even though the 1200 # bars are really required for a 2499, they are turning up with the coaches that have the frame problems? In other words, having enough bar for the job is causing the twisting, right? If there were 550 # bars on a coach, I don't think it would have been as severe. I'm thinking this same thing happened with the 2363- it has too much tongue weight in most cases for the 750's, but the 1000 was too much bar and caused the bend.

Jon
Jon it is funny that you point that out....we ran with 750 bars until this year when we upgraded.....and we only have a slight
twist to the header.......
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Old 07-19-2008, 03:37 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Deb B
I don't know much about working with pictures except to attatch them in an e-mail, but will try when I get over there.
Hi Deb,

Feel free to send me a PM if you'd like me to post them for you. I can give you my e-mail address so you can send them to me.

Jon
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Old 07-19-2008, 03:57 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunline Fan
John,


However, haven't you found that even though the 1200 # bars are really required for a 2499, they are turning up with the coaches that have the frame problems? In other words, having enough bar for the job is causing the twisting, right? If there were 550 # bars on a coach, I don't think it would have been as severe. I'm thinking this same thing happened with the 2363- it has too much tongue weight in most cases for the 750's, but the 1000 was too much bar and caused the bend.

Jon
Hi Jon

Bink68 has 750# WD bars on his T2499 and his header broke completely away from the A frame. There is a design issue in the 2005 frame redesign. From what we have been able to piece together they made 2 revisions that show up on the T2499, the intermediate attempt, Clarkldc has broke too. KathyH and Emanís latest design has held. So running 1,000 or 1,200# WD bars that are needed for the T2499 are not the problem. The problem is the frame make up itself. As more info keeps coming in, we do not yet know what else Sunline changed on the other 7,000# GVWR TTís.

On the 5,500# GVWR TTís they may have made a change as well, which Deb has bumped into. She is going to try and get us some picís/dimís and this will help. It would be really great if we had say a 2003 or 2004 (older then 2005), T2363 to compare to or another 5,500# GVWR frame. From the limited pieces I can put together in 2005 Sunline went to upgrading the main frames to I beam from C Channel. The I beam is stronger however they missed a few things on the A frame/header.

Right now I do not see anything wrong with what Deb did however her unit may have run into the same problem associated with the 7,000# GVWR frames. More on this once we know what her frame is and hopefully what the older 5,500# frame was.

Yesterday I was at an RV tour and saw a 6,000# GVWR TT. Naturally I looked at the frame and Iíll post picís later on the T2499 thread. That frame was made by Dexter. Each frame builder puts this A frame on different. Sunline missed a few forces when they did there upgrade.

Deb do not loose faith, this is all very fixable and then you can get back to that great camper we all have. Early detection makes the fix easier.

John
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Old 07-20-2008, 03:21 PM   #19
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OK, I just got back from the storage lot.
A frame - 4 in.
Header - 6 1/2 in.
Side main frame - 6 in. I beam

All three holding tanks are underneath. The black tank is the more forward one and is JUST forward of the wheels. I always carry some water in grey and black tanks after dumping but we do not carry fresh water.

My husband tends to carry quite a few tools and such which is in the back of the Tahoe. We now will load them more close to the front.

As far as the storage under the sofa, I usually have our bottled water and a few lightweight things - the side compartment up front has some wood pieces that we use under the jacks and a tarp.

We have upgraded 30# gas bottles and cover and an electric tongue jack.

My husband was with me this time. He looked underneath and did not notice any other damage to the frame or welded spots.

I have tried my best with the pictures and hope they show the bend enough to see it well.

John B., I sent the pictures to you. Thanks so much for posting them for me.

Jon thanks for the offer to do them as well.

Hope this all helps,
Deb
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Old 07-20-2008, 09:51 PM   #20
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Deb

Here are your 2006, T2363 frame pics. You said it was made in August of 2005.

These pictures exhibit the same design features as the 7,000# GVWR TT frame that shows up on the 2005 and newer T2499 and other units. Your pics are also the first generation 2005 redesign. We have found 2 design revisions on the 2005 redesigned T2499 frames up until they stopped doing business. It appears that possibly when Sunline designed in the I beam frame in the smaller TT in 2005 they put them in the 5,500# GVWR TT and the 7,000# GVWR TTís. The axles/tires may line up with the GVWR but the frame again ďappearsĒ in these pics as the same as the 7,000# frames. Using this same frame on multiple size TT's within a range it not a bad thing or an uncommon thing. It may just be we here on Sunline Club have just realized it.

We do know that my 2004, T310SR with a 10,000# GVWR rating is made the same as Hutches 2005, T280SR which has an 8,600# GVWR rating. Axles and tires are different but the frame construction is the same.

Iím expecting Steve Collins to jump in here soon with his 1999, 5,500# GVWR frame so we can compare what the older 5,500# rated frames used to be. Once he posts ,we can look into this deeper.

Once a final fix for the T2499 is sorted out, that fix will fix yours as well. Yours is found in the early stages and the repair will be easier.

Here are Debís pics.

The WD hitch on the A frame.


The bent header


The A frame penetrating the header from the inside view


A close up


The A frame attaching to the I beam


Hope this helps

John
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